CCFC can still have the Higgs 50% share ??? (1 Viewer)

duffer · Oct 8, 2014

letsallsingtogether said:
That is the original deal that Higgs signed up to. Now at least one side has stood up to it's end of the bargain.
Funny how some still want to make out that the charity that Sisu tried to rip off and then took to court are charlatans. So lets see if they accept or not fuck me it has taken over 2 years and still not wound up.......

I've defended Higgs to the hilt here and elsewhere previously, but unless I've badly misread this I think the only reason CCFC Ltd are being offered the option is because it's a legal requirement for Higgs to do so. They've already agreed to sell to Wasps if the option isn't taken, and they're not offering their share to the club, they are offering it to the liquidator (a key difference).

Yes, they were burnt by SISU, and pissed around royally, but once you go down the road of offering the ground to a franchise then you've shown that it's 'just business' to you too, and lost any expectation of special treatment, imho.

covcity4life · Oct 8, 2014

nice to see council lovers admitting they were wrong all these years.

smileycov · Oct 8, 2014

still cant understanmd why they want to come up to the midlands to be fair

oldskyblue58 · Oct 8, 2014

Samo said:
Sorry if I'm being a little dense here OSB but... If the SB&L accounts showed the option as an asset, why would they need to claim beneficial ownership? They paid good money for the option didn't they?

paid who good money? ...... certainly wasn't the Charity and there is no disposal shown in any CCFC Ltd accounts. Seems to me that in the 2007 administration they stripped it out of CCFC Ltd put a value of £1m on it and included it in the SBS&L accounts. Thing is it couldn't be transferred without the Charity's permission and none was given. Oh and SBS&L accounts show a cashflow payment out of £1m so who did that go to?

So they might need to argue that as owners of shares in CCFC H which owned CCFC Ltd that SBS&L were beneficial owners because as far as I can see the actual option should not have been included in the SBS&L accounts

As usual with SISU etc nothing is simple or is what it seems - best I can explain it samo sorry

duffer · Oct 8, 2014

Deleted member 5849 said:
That's a fair point.

We'd all get behind a campaign to distress Wasps... surely?

They're a franchise club now. They've made their decision about where they stand, I'd have no issue with this personally. Every time a franchise club is damaged or broken, people will think twice about trying it again.

Deleted member 5849 · Oct 8, 2014

duffer said:
They're a franchise club now. They've made their decision about where they stand, I'd have no issue with this personally. Every time a franchise club is damaged or broken, people will think twice about trying it again.

Yup, as soon as the arguments become financial, may as well let it play out as kill or be killed.

Jack Griffin · Oct 8, 2014

ashbyjan said:
As it was explained to me CCFC Ltd have the first option to make a bid after that the Charity is free to sell to whoever it would like to. From what Simon has said (and the Trust haven't been told this but have no reason to believe its not correct) if CCFC Ltd do not take up their option within 30 days then a sale has been agreed with Wasps. We are trying to get some financial advice as to the question of a company in liquidation taking up such an option. I am sure SISU must know people who have expertise in finance and the law and personally I would have thought that this is an opportunity they would be moving heaven and earth to exercise if they have the best interests on CCFC at heart

I expect the lights will be on at Ryton late into the night.

Nick · Oct 8, 2014

So the club can't buy it even if they want to?

Jack Griffin · Oct 8, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Osb's post is interesting. Has the option transferred to Otium?

Even if it has or the beneficial ownership is established, there is still only 30 days till some sort of action has to be taken.

RegTheDonk · Oct 8, 2014

If there is a legal pothole where CCFC Ltd cannot buy the Higgs share, then what is to stop CCFC / Otium putting in a bid once the 30 days are up?

And if that were to happen, presume WASPS would be at liberty to put in a higher bid?

Jack Griffin · Oct 8, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
There isn't a suggestion that Higgs would sell to Otium? It sounds like they HAVE to go through the motions.

You may be right, maybe they don't have to accept any offer, even if it matches the Wasp offer.

ashbyjan · Oct 8, 2014

Nick said:
So the club can't buy it even if they want to?

I think the case is exactly the opposite - they can possibly buy it via the CCFC Ltd option, if that can be exercised or they can simply put in a rival bid to the Wasps bid. The charity appears to have put a price on their 50% and Wasps have agreed to meet that asking price - it is now up to CCFC to match or beat that offer, there is nothing stopping them doing that except themselves.

oldskyblue58 · Oct 8, 2014

The problem here is I think what is good for CCFC isn't necessarily the same goals for SISU.

There are certainly ways that CCFC can partner Wasps at the Ricoh (even without owning the 50%) the trouble is right now what SISU are left with at the Ricoh (every option up to and including 50% ownership) doesn't really give them the big financial gains 100% outright ownership would bring. For instance ACL is a private company so owning 50% of the shares a sale at some point in the future would require the approval of the other 50% - there a risk of being locked in or even discounted in value if say the relationship is poor. There are not the same deals to be done for 50% as 100% in terms of structure or value, it is not so flexible. 50% might suit CCFC but not so sure it suits SISU

Another point, I never recommend to clients a 50:50 split of a company ........ what happens if fundamental disagreements occur, neither side can make the decision, its a recipe for potential deadlock and that could be very damaging

Monners · Oct 8, 2014

Is the answer to make a joint offer with Wasps then OSB? In other words, say half each for the Higgs share, therefore Sisu end up with 25% and Wasps 75% of ACL? Although why would Wasps do this when they can have all of it?

fernandopartridge · Oct 8, 2014

Jack Griffin said:
Even if it has or the beneficial ownership is established, there is still only 30 days till some sort of action has to be taken.

Why 30 days? Is that an arbitrary figure that's been plucked out of the air?

oldskyblue58 · Oct 8, 2014

Not sure they will make any offer to be honest. But if I were Wasps I would want at least 51% and as the new shareholders I suspect they have right of veto under the Companies Act for private companies in terms of accepting/rejecting new shareholders.

You would hope however that some kind of partnership could be forged. Wasps are making the right noises but as we know actions speak loudest. Unfortunately SISU do not seem to have a good track record with partners or indeed the notion of compromise to make things work

There is always the possibility that SISU have simply parked CCFC financially at the ricoh for 4 years whilst they complete the legal cases or perhaps build a small scale ground. So why would they need 50%.

All conjecture really who knows which way Joy will go

KersleyDigs · Oct 8, 2014

Les Reid has tweeted that Council can veto any sale of Higgs shares. I assume they would veto any offer from CCFC and approve sale to Wasps

fernandopartridge · Oct 8, 2014

KersleyDigs said:
Les Reid has tweeted that Council can veto any sale of Higgs shares. I assume they would veto any offer from CCFC and approve sale to Wasps

Ah that was mentioned a while back as one of the terms of the lease. Isn't it what ML mentioned as an issue with the lease and license.

oldskyblue58 · Oct 8, 2014

KersleyDigs said:
Les Reid has tweeted that Council can veto any sale of Higgs shares. I assume they would veto any offer from CCFC and approve sale to Wasps

if ccc no longer have any shares and no longer have any directors on the ACL board how exactly can they?

KersleyDigs · Oct 8, 2014

oldskyblue58 said:
if ccc no longer have any shares and no longer have any directors on the ACL board how exactly can they?

Not sure, do Wasps have the veto then? I mean that wouldn't work, would it?!

Jack Griffin · Oct 8, 2014

oldskyblue58 said:
The problem here is I think what is good for CCFC isn't necessarily the same goals for SISU.

That has always been the problem, nail on the head!

Jack Griffin · Oct 8, 2014

fernandopartridge said:
Why 30 days? Is that an arbitrary figure that's been plucked out of the air?

It is in the CT story.. I don't know where it comes from exactly.

Grendel · Oct 8, 2014

RegTheDonk said:
If there is a legal pothole where CCFC Ltd cannot buy the Higgs share, then what is to stop CCFC / Otium putting in a bid once the 30 days are up?

And if that were to happen, presume WASPS would be at liberty to put in a higher bid?

The bid is based on them getting 100% so they will be getting 100%

quinn1971 · Oct 8, 2014

Grendel said:
The bid is based on them getting 100% so they will be getting 100%

3 bids have gone in for the Higgs share, wasps, ccfc & ?

stupot07 · Oct 8, 2014

quinn1971 said:
3 bids have gone in for the Higgs share, wasps, ccfc & ?

Council? They have a buy first option too don't they? They could then sell them on

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

quinn1971 · Oct 8, 2014

stupot07 said:
Council? They have a buy first option too don't they? They could then sell them on

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

guess it's up to our old friend Paul Appleton again, he might do us a favour this time ?

stupot07 · Oct 8, 2014

@Lesreidpolitics: As I tweeted yday in breaking story, council source told me council's right to veto Higgs' ACL share sale would transfer to Wasps. We'll see

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

RoboCCFC90 · Oct 8, 2014

Please god tell me one of them is CCFC:

@Lesreidpolitics: 1/2 A source claims possibly 3 bids into #CCFC Ltd liquidator Paul Appleton for Higgs Ricoh share. As ever, unconfirmed. Awaiting more

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skybluetony176 · Oct 8, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
Please god tell me one of them is CCFC:

@Lesreidpolitics: 1/2 A source claims possibly 3 bids into #CCFC Ltd liquidator Paul Appleton for Higgs Ricoh share. As ever, unconfirmed. Awaiting more

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Wouldn't they be bidding for first refusal rights of the Higgs share and not the Higgs Ricoh share?

RoboCCFC90 · Oct 8, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
Wouldn't they be bidding for first refusal rights of the Higgs share and not the Higgs Ricoh share?

Not if SBS&L are the company doing the bidding!

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Astute · Oct 8, 2014

Can anyone remember how much CCFC LTD owe and who to?

Maybe as CCFC LTD has not been liquidated yet would it be worth paying the debts that would be needed to get the 50% share. IIRC the tax bill was about 600k and then there was the rent owed. The contract would be gone as CCC don't own any of ACL. AND SISU would end up with the other half. Would still be much cheaper than a tinpot stadium built wherever.

wingy · Oct 8, 2014

Astute said:
Can anyone remember how much CCFC LTD owe and who to?

Maybe as CCFC LTD has not been liquidated yet would it be worth paying the debts that would be needed to get the 50% share. IIRC the tax bill was about 600k and then there was the rent owed. The contract would be gone as CCC don't own any of ACL. AND SISU would end up with the other half. Would still be much cheaper than a tinpot stadium built wherever.

HRC ,43 years on the Lease?/

Grendel · Oct 8, 2014

Astute said:
Can anyone remember how much CCFC LTD owe and who to?

Maybe as CCFC LTD has not been liquidated yet would it be worth paying the debts that would be needed to get the 50% share. IIRC the tax bill was about 600k and then there was the rent owed. The contract would be gone as CCC don't own any of ACL. AND SISU would end up with the other half. Would still be much cheaper than a tinpot stadium built wherever.

The debt is 43 years of a lease

skybluetony176 · Oct 8, 2014

RoboCCFC90 said:
Not if SBS&L are the company doing the bidding!

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Think you missed my point Robo. LR has put PA has received 3 bids for the Higgs Ricoh share. PA and therefore CCFC ltd doesn't hold the Higgs 50%, Higgs do. All that's in Ltd is first dibs for the Higgs share not the share itself.

Grendel · Oct 8, 2014

skybluetony176 said:
Think you missed my point Robo. LR has put PA has received 3 bids for the Higgs Ricoh share. PA and therefore CCFC ltd doesn't hold the Higgs 50%, Higgs do. All that's in Ltd is first dibs for the Higgs share not the share itself.

Who owns the veto Tony ?

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