CCFC £40 million in red (1 Viewer)

johnniericoh · Jun 6, 2011

Another bombshell.

CCFC accounts now lodged with Companies House show net current liabilities of £39,584,467

WTF is going on??

PUSB

cloughie · Jun 6, 2011

So shitsu can make a loss against other profits that means no tax paid! and any prospective buyer will have to take up the loss so shitsu walk away with no losses!!!!!

Colonel Mustard · Jun 6, 2011

To whom is the money owed though?

Jim · Jun 6, 2011

Which set of accounts states this?

CCFC?
CCFC Holdings?
SBSL?

johnniericoh · Jun 7, 2011

Jim,

CCFC (Holdings) Limited

skybluesam66 · Jun 7, 2011

Money is owed to sisu and represents their investment in ccfc . Imagine if the hoff was to buy ccfc for 40m tomorrow - we would all be wetting ourselves, but technically still be 40m in the red, just the debt would be hoffs . Sisu must believe that their investment is value or believe me they would be off . This means that either they have a promotion plan or a stadium acquisition plan

Also if they were thinking of the admin option in the short term, they would not have found the extra 8m at the end of the season, and appointed a board who are no doubt well compensated

Sky Blue Sheepy · Jun 7, 2011

Hopefully they are not planning on doing "Prem or bust" a la Cardiff. Much as I think we could sneak something this season, I wouldn't bank on anything atm. We dont know who we'll lose yet

oldskyblue58 · Jun 7, 2011

The accounts are on links under another thread "finally the accounts"

Dont see what the bombshell is ....... the losses/deficit in CCFC Holdings have increased by £100K in the year to 31/05/10.

We already had net liabilities of £38m in 2009 and £32m the year before

It doesnt mean SISU get the losses but other companies in the group might use them to set off against profits. There is a difference. Also these are the same companies that have helped provide cash flow to keep the club going so it isnt all one way.

As it stands SISU stand to make losses if they cannot refinance. the current losses lowers the value of the club and therefore the amount they could sell their investment for. If it goes bust they lose the lot

Not a fan of SISU but lets not get carried away in making the wrong assumptions

The accounts dont tell us anything we didnt already suspect. The club is reliant on player sales and cash from the group companies or SISU to keep going. It lives beyond its means and that is not sustainable. We dont have much outstanding to 3rd party creditors but that is because they owe it to SISU investment funds. We will have made more losses this year and SISU have introduced some funds to cover those losses. We are in the mire. But none of that should be a surprise to any CCFC fan

PUSB

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

skybluesam66 said:
Money is owed to sisu and represents their investment in ccfc . Imagine if the hoff was to buy ccfc for 40m tomorrow - we would all be wetting ourselves, but technically still be 40m in the red, just the debt would be hoffs . Sisu must believe that their investment is value or believe me they would be off . This means that either they have a promotion plan or a stadium acquisition plan

Also if they were thinking of the admin option in the short term, they would not have found the extra 8m at the end of the season, and appointed a board who are no doubt well compensated

The money is owed to Sisu, so how they could they 'be off'?

There isn't much point in admin either as they will lose the money.

There is no reason to believe that they have a promotion or stadium acquisition plan, they will just ensure that you don't spend too much more than you earn.
They've already told you this.

Just be thankful that you're paying very little interest on the loan.

So much for Ranson and his 'this club is debt free'.
He tool 303k a year in salary and 10% interest on his loan to you.

Godiva · Jun 7, 2011

I really admire your stamina OSB!
But I fear that your efforts are all in vain - most fans no nothing about finances, investments, ownership and management hierarchy, yet they insist on pointing out the hero's and the villains off the football field.

I would like to add one simple fact to the reported loss of £4,7mio ... IF Ranson had been able to sell off Westwood and Gunnar last summer, the club could have pretty much reported a break-even account. Sure, we would have brought in replacements, but most of the revenues would have gone towards balancing the books. As RR didn't manage to make the sales he subsequently lost his last support in the boardroom and was send packing.

Nobody can say for sure we would have been relegated without Westwood and Gunnar, but without the sales the accounts shows the impact on the finances. The longer we stay in red, the harder it gets to bring in new investments from either SISU or other parties.

Let's hope for the future of our club that we this season manage to sell the likes of Turner, Juke and Baker to relieve the pressure on the accounts.

covcity4life · Jun 7, 2011

this isnt enough! as a cov fan i want access to pincodes and the ability to deposit/withfraw funds

COME ON SISU WE COV FANS WANT TRANSPARENCY!

Godiva · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
The money is owed to Sisu, so how they could they 'be off'?

There isn't much point in admin either as they will lose the money.

There is no reason to believe that they have a promotion or stadium acquisition plan, they will just ensure that you don't spend too much more than you earn.
They've already told you this.

Just be thankful that you're paying very little interest on the loan.

So much for Ranson and his 'this club is debt free'.
He tool 303k a year in salary and 10% interest on his loan to you.

The account notes clearly state that the club do NOT pay any interest on the loan to SISU.

And to be fair - Nobody on the board or management EVER told us the club were free of any debts - only that there were no debts to external parties like banks.
There is a difference.

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

Ranson was telling all and sundry that you were 'debt free' when he first took over. It was obvious that it wasn't true but many co* fans believed it.

What do you think will happen, it seems unlikely that anyone will invest as they'll need 40m to pay off debts, 20m? to buy the stadium and ann then investment in the team. You don't have many more players to sell.

rob9872 · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
Ranson was telling all and sundry that you were 'debt free' when he first took over. It was obvious that it wasn't true but many co* fans believed it.

What do you think will happen, it seems unlikely that anyone will invest as they'll need 40m to pay off debts, 20m? to buy the stadium and ann then investment in the team. You don't have many more players to sell.

We can always do a Leic*ster and bump all the local business community before overspending again, rinse and repeat!!

One day a large club will go to the wall and I have feared it would be us, but I do hope that if it isn't Cardiff or Leeds, then it's your lot. Not for any local childish rivalry but because of the lessons not noted that history should have taught you. I know you're a WUM, but quite how you can sit in your current house of cards and preach, only you know.

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

rob9872 said:
We can always do a Leic*ster and bump all the local business community before overspending again, rinse and repeat!!

One day a large club will go to the wall and I have feared it would be us, but I do hope that if it isn't Cardiff or Leeds, then it's your lot. Not for any local childish rivalry but because of the lessons not noted that history should have taught you. I know you're a WUM, but quite how you can sit in your current house of cards and preach, only you know.

But you can't as you don't owe money to anyone but Sisu.
What lessons are these? You don't understand what happened with us do you?
Our current debt is structured like yours, the owners hold it, not the banks.

You haven't overspent on players and look where you've ended up, thankfully our owners purchased a club that has decent support and income from it's home crowds, we have a chance of a future.

rob9872 · Jun 7, 2011

Twice in admin and recently spending £80k p/w on Yakubu not to mention pouring money down the drain that is Sven, suggests you'll be achiveing a hat-trick of admins some time soon. Let's all hope it's third time lucky!

Godiva · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
What do you think will happen, it seems unlikely that anyone will invest as they'll need 40m to pay off debts, 20m? to buy the stadium and ann then investment in the team. You don't have many more players to sell.

Oh but we do .... have players to sell. And most are quite young and starting to make a name for themself. Turner, Keogh, Cameron, Hussey, Juke, Deegan, Clarke ...
Every time a star leaves he makes room for someone else to become a star. When the best player is off another will become the best. This has never changed and never will.

The club didn't manage to sell Westwood or Gunnarson and that reflects in our £4,7mio deficit. Hopefully we can sell off a few stars next season to balance the books and carry on finding the next stars among the young talents in the lower divisions.

Our way to new investments or even new owners or just to stay in business requires earning more than we spend.

oldskyblue58 · Jun 7, 2011

That would be the same club that lost £7m in year to 31/05/10 and £6m the year before

Same club that has revenue losses accumulated of £34m as at 31/05/10

Same club that owed £12m to the parent company at 31/05/10

a club thats current liabilities exceeded current assets by £20m

a team valued in the accounts at £3m like ours

Yes you own the stadium but it secures debts..... yes it is revalued at £40m + yet strangely you value the Ricoh at £20m (no we dont own it but it is argueably a better stadium points about atmosphere aside)..... am guessing the 2009 valuation is not currently accurate.

Accounts that carry comments from its auditors and directors about going concern

A team still in the championship that won nothing and were not close enough to play offs to say they missed out.

A team that spends far more than it earns..... and given the players signed etc last season continued to make significant losses....

Another £7m loss in 31/05/11 and you will have net liabilities despite owning the stadium.

All this despite having such a "great" support and such a bright future ??????

basically not so very different Hackneyfox.......... pot calling kettle in reality

smileycov · Jun 7, 2011

OSB, you are a star sir.............Hackneyfox, owned

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

rob9872 said:
Twice in admin and recently spending £80k p/w on Yakubu not to mention pouring money down the drain that is Sven, suggests you'll be achiveing a hat-trick of admins some time soon. Let's all hope it's third time lucky!

As I thought, you know nothing!
Could you show me where we went into admin a second time?
Yakubu wasn't on 80k a week at Everton, the worst rumour was that he was on 50k a week with us and a players father in law has since stated that it is 'nothing like that'.
Sven a drain?
A very successful drain then.

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

oldskyblue58 said:
That would be the same club that lost £7m in year to 31/05/10 and £6m the year before

Same club that has revenue losses accumulated of £34m as at 31/05/10

Same club that owed £12m to the parent company at 31/05/10

a club thats current liabilities exceeded current assets by £20m

a team valued in the accounts at £3m like ours

Yes you own the stadium but it secures debts..... yes it is revalued at £40m + yet strangely you value the Ricoh at £20m (no we dont own it but it is argueably a better stadium points about atmosphere aside)..... am guessing the 2009 valuation is not currently accurate.

Accounts that carry comments from its auditors and directors about going concern

A team still in the championship that won nothing and were not close enough to play offs to say they missed out.

A team that spends far more than it earns..... and given the players signed etc last season continued to make significant losses....

Another £7m loss in 31/05/11 and you will have net liabilities despite owning the stadium.

All this despite having such a "great" support and such a bright future ??????

basically not so very different Hackneyfox.......... pot calling kettle in reality

So we're 20m in debt compared to your 39m (liabilities v assets).
I put the Ricoh at 20m as being the price you may have to pay, I didn't have a clue really.
So that makes 40m debt plus 40 stadium plus money on players that any new investors would have to stump up.
I'd say we're in a much better position than you, both financially with something to worry about but we at least have an income stream.

We'll_live_and_die · Jun 7, 2011

You gotta admit, Red is a far nicer colour than Black.

Godiva · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
Sven a drain?
A very successful drain then.

Successful ??? When was he ever sucessful?
Oh ... you mean by the ladies.

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

When was he ever successful?

Are you and Rob9872 in a competition to come up with the most inane post of the day?

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

Rich said:
You gotta admit, Red is a far nicer colour than Black.

Red is the new Black

We'll_live_and_die · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
Red is the new Black

You know you wanna be in the Red again. Ripping up the pitch again will help you lot. £100k down the swanny. At least CCFC don't have to pay that sort of fee as we rent our stadium.

oldskyblue58 · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
So we're 20m in debt compared to your 39m (liabilities v assets).
I put the Ricoh at 20m as being the price you may have to pay, I didn't have a clue really.
So that makes 40m debt plus 40 stadium plus money on players that any new investors would have to stump up.
I'd say we're in a much better position than you, both financially with something to worry about but we at least have an income stream.

The only place where you are better off than us is that you own the stadium. However you have spent the equity in that and leaves you at risk of insolvency just as we are. There is no league of insolvency levels you are or you are not - the amount is not actually relevant.

Bottom line is that both teams - like many others - rely on the owners to fund the unsustainability of their spending. Both teams achieved precisely nothing last season- one chose to do it spending lots the other by doing it on a shoe string - same result which ever way you choose to look at it.

Both teams have an income stream to claim we do not is simply ludicrous - both teams spent more than their gross income, at some point owners say enough. Suggest you actually look at your accounts before you start crowing over how much better off you are.

We'll_live_and_die · Jun 7, 2011

Am I right in thinking the owners of Lester will be funding in the same way as SISU... Loans?

Godiva · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
When was he ever successful?

Are you and Rob9872 in a competition to come up with the most inane post of the day?

You didn't answer my question. But I guess success depends on the expectations.
I would say he was pretty sucessful until 1999, when he had the best players available in Sweden, Italy and Portugal, but after that he never really lived up to the expectations.
He is at best a 'has been' ... but by all means, cherrish your illusions.

oldskyblue58 · Jun 7, 2011

There are loans from parent company £12m Rich. Much like SISU. But there are also £17m of loans secured by finance agreements on the stadium.

Lucky for them they walked away from a big chunk of debt when went into administration, and have then revalued the property (which was partly "paid" for from the debt they walked away from I believe but could be wrong). Effectively got the revalued asset on the cheap. Something we were not able to do.

Suspect the parent company loans are higher now after what was probably a big loss from last season. Assuming stadium value is accurate they would have to sell all assets to pay all creditors. Relies on far east owners to fund which is fine so long as they are happy to throw money at it..... which isnt so different to SISU

We'll_live_and_die · Jun 7, 2011

Nice one OSB

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

Except that our owners are happy to throw money at us while yours have stated that they won't throw anymore.

We'll_live_and_die · Jun 7, 2011

hackneyfox said:
Except that our owners are happy to throw money at us while yours have stated that they won't throw anymore.

Note the important bit ANYMORE. Our's did for a while, not quite as much as yours, but they did throw money at us. Your day will come my smelly friend. Consider us the Beagles waiting to pounce should you stop running.

hackneyfox · Jun 7, 2011

When did Sisu throw money at you?
They spent a bit in the first year on Westwood, Dann and .....

After that it was just paying off your running costs and subsidising the diminishing crowds.

rob9872 · Jun 7, 2011

Yeah what we need are fickle inbreds to clog up the ground and then pay extortionate sums of money to over-hyped, overpaid, over-the-hill money grabbers and then go into admin at the expense of the local comunity. Still nevermind, at least you've always got your FA cup victories to keep you warm ... oh hang on a minute, it was only the Mickey Mouse League Cup version that you've won, my bad.

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