Carillion (1 Viewer)

[clint van damme]

Following on from the East Coast rail franchise debacle surely someone in government has to be held to account for these fuck ups? They're costing the public a fortune.

I don't always agree with Vince Cable but he is right, we are privatising profits but nationalising losses for these companies.

If you read the whole affair, from the short selling on Carrillion, to the ignoring of profit warnings to the salaries and bonuses being paid to ex and current chairman it's an absolute cesspit of corruption.

 

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[Nick]

Worked for them years ago, issue is too many old boys who know nothing getting paid too much.

Say I wanted to change the banner on the website for example, it would need 3 meetings, a handful of consultants and stupid money for something that takes seconds to just do.

 

[clint van damme]

Worked for them years ago, issue is too many old boys who know nothing getting paid too much.

I was referring more to the short selling, the protected salaries and bonuses for chairman and ex chairman which are costing the public a fortune and the general culture surrounding these government contractors and franchisees.

What is going to happen to HS2 now? Another government bail out? You can guarantee that's going to cost billions more than we've been told, (Hammond already got his figures wrong by 20 billion! Imagine if someone in Labour had done that, it would need it's own sub section on this site).
It's a fucking racket.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I was referring more to the short selling, the protected salaries and bonuses for chairman and ex chairman which are costing the public a fortune and the general culture surrounding these government contractors and franchisees.

What is going to happen to HS2 now? Another government bail out? You can guarantee that's going to cost billions more than we've been told, (Hammond already got his figures wrong by 20 billion! Imagine if someone in Labour had done that, it would need it's own sub section on this site).
It's a fucking racket.

HS2 should be canned anyway. The whole thing is a farce!

 

[NorthernWisdom]

HS2 should be canned anyway. The whole thing is a farce!

Was going to say. What's going to happen to HS2 now? We can but pray!

 

[clint van damme]

HS2 should be canned anyway. The whole thing is a farce!

I have a view, that if we spent the money on high end training, (sciences, emerging technologies etc), that the calibre of the available workforce would be more attractive to overseas investors than lopping half hour of a train journey. Just based on hunch and nothing else so I'm prepared to see that theory shot down by someone with a bit more understanding of the whole HS2 thing.

 

[NorthernWisdom]

I have a view, that if we spent the money on high end training, (sciences, emerging technologies etc), that the calibre of the available workforce would be more attractive to overseas investors than lopping half hour of a train journey. Just based on hunch and nothing else so I'm prepared to see that theory shot down by someone with a bit more understanding of the whole HS2 thing.

The only argument I can buy with HS2 is that of capacity. I don't really understand why they ignore that and focus on the travel time.

It's centralising everything on London too which I don't really understand.

 

[skybluetony176]

Was going to say. What's going to happen to HS2 now? We can but pray!

Apparently it was always going to be built as a partnership between various construction firms and the remaining construction firms are contractually obligated to take up the slack. Apparently all the contracts have been written that was for this scenario so don’t expect HS2 to be cancelled just yet.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I have a view, that if we spent the money on high end training, (sciences, emerging technologies etc), that the calibre of the available workforce would be more attractive to overseas investors than lopping half hour of a train journey. Just based on hunch and nothing else so I'm prepared to see that theory shot down by someone with a bit more understanding of the whole HS2 thing.

Unfortunately you have the pleasure of talking to someone who's life this has affected for the last 5-10 years! My parents lived towards Kenilworth and in the end sold their house about 100 grand less than what it should be worth due to HS2 being planned for about half a mile behind their garden across open fields.

I'm normally all for investment but this is well and truly a white elephant. Set to boost times that are already really good if you compare them to European standards. As NW said, it's just making things more London centric too, not the other way around. It also could have taken the motorway corridors, but no. It also could and should have been connected to HS1 (Eurotunnel), but they scrapped that because they said they wanted to save money. In actual fact it was only saving them about 1 billion of a 100 billion pound project. The real reason was that it would have had to go through Camden and they knew they couldn't take the residents on.

It made me laugh when Phillip Hammond said we need to 'live within our means' whilst selling off our aircraft carriers, only a short time after signing off HS2! Capacity and general improvement yes, a new fast train line to widen the notches on the london belt at a cost of billions to the tax payer, no thank you.

Oh, and then there's the bit about them not even bothering to use British train manufacturers and all...

 

[dancers lance]

Unfortunately you have the pleasure of talking to someone who's life this has affected for the last 5-10 years! My parents lived towards Kenilworth and in the end sold their house about 100 grand less than what it should be worth due to HS2 being planned for about half a mile behind their garden across open fields.

I'm normally all for investment but this is well and truly a white elephant. Set to boost times that are already really good if you compare them to European standards. As NW said, it's just making things more London centric too, not the other way around. It also could have taken the motorway corridors, but no. It also could and should have been connected to HS1 (Eurotunnel), but they scrapped that because they said they wanted to save money. In actual fact it was only saving them about 1 billion of a 100 billion pound project. The real reason was that it would have had to go through Camden and they knew they couldn't take the residents on.

It made me laugh when Phillip Hammond said we need to 'live within our means' whilst selling off our aircraft carriers, only a short time after signing off HS2! Capacity and general improvement yes, a new fast train line to widen the notches on the london belt at a cost of billions to the tax payer, no thank you.

Oh, and then there's the bit about them not even bothering to use British train manufacturers and all...

HS2 is nothing more than a vanity project, the money that has already been thrown it this pile of shite is eye watering.

 

[chiefdave]

Following on from the East Coast rail franchise debacle surely someone in government has to be held to account for these fuck ups? They're costing the public a fortune.

I don't always agree with Vince Cable but he is right, we are privatising profits but nationalising losses for these companies.

If you read the whole affair, from the short selling on Carrillion, to the ignoring of profit warnings to the salaries and bonuses being paid to ex and current chairman it's an absolute cesspit of corruption.

I don't know how they get away with it. When the likes of Corbyn stand up and suggest this is the wrong way of doing things the media make out he is spouting an extreme left socialist view that doesn't warrant any consideration.

Companies like this are essentially public sector the only difference being those out the top are walking away with millions of taxpayers money. You can bet they won't be handing any of that back while the taxpayer will get the bill for another bail out.

How they were allowed to get into this state I can't comprehend. They've not even been put into administration, the receiver has come in, had a look and basically said its so bad there's no other option than liquidation.

 

[shmmeee]

Outsourcing public services never works. You end up paying the same people to do the same job but for slightly shitter pay and with cheaper materials. Then when something like this happens the state picks up the bill.

The entire premise of the profit motive is it’s a reward for risk. Where’s the risk in this? Not taken by the outsourcing company that’s for sure. It’s just ideological nonsense that’s pushing everything to overpriced private sector stuff. Started with Blair and accelerated by Cameron and May.

Meanwhile the Daily Mail pushes for the owners mates to get more fat contracts with propaganda about state funding. It’s sick. The lot of them should be brought up on charges of theft from the public purse.

 

[richnrg]

Worked for them years ago, issue is too many old boys who know nothing getting paid too much.

Say I wanted to change the banner on the website for example, it would need 3 meetings, a handful of consultants and stupid money for something that takes seconds to just do.

Blimey, Carillion own SkyBlueTalk too?

 

[chiefdave]

Outsourcing public services never works. You end up paying the same people to do the same job but for slightly shitter pay and with cheaper materials. Then when something like this happens the state picks up the bill.

Exactly, the bill to the taxpayer is higher as you've got a middle man taking a big chunk. The sub-contractors get screwed, low rates and hard to get your money.

On the radio this morning they were saying Carillion were notorious for taking months to pay smaller companies. One chap was on whose company is owned £800K, he's had to make his staff redundant as he won't be getting that money now.

Some of the areas this happens in are shocking. Apparently CCC are struggling to find foster families for kids as there are private companies who will pay more per week. That means the council has to go to them to meet demand and therefore pay far more per child per week than when it was all done directly by the council. Who is that supposed to benefit?

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

It’s just lucky the top bosses managed to safeguard their bonuses, although I am not sure how they have got bonus in a business that isn’t performing that well.

 

[wingy]

It’s just lucky the top bosses managed to safeguard their bonuses, although I am not sure how they have got bonus in a business that isn’t performing that well.

It's ok.
The secretary to the treasury when questioned on this has has assured Parlaiment that Corperate Governance is the strongest and will remain that way!!

 

[Captain Dart]

Kerching..

 

[richnrg]

poor bloke must have had a shit car

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

Kerching..

The long term incentives must be a bit iffy, nice to get 231k into his pension pot that’s only 231 times the amount that went into mine this year.

 

[wingy]

Alan White News editor from buzzfeed just on the Beeb Seems to have a handle on how broken public procurement through the private sector is.

 

[fernandopartridge]

There is an incredibly lax attitude to financial due diligence in the public sector. Public sector buyers are also worried about potential legal challenge from the likes of Carillion (they know how to spend money on legal fees and consultancy) if they rejected a bid based on Carillion's financial health. The financial staff I have dealt with generally are more concerned about day to day accounts rather than assessment of their suppliers.

Another problem is the revolving door between the higher echelons of the public and private sector, and that dreadful cartel of accountancy / consultancy firms (KPMG, Deloitte, PA Consulting, EY, PwC etc etc) who are often being paid by both buyer and supplier who provide all the duff advice.

Carillion are not really a private sector company in the true sense of the word, they are wholly reliant on public money, why on earth should public money be used to pay bonuses? It is fucking abhorrent.

 

[shmmeee]

The irony is that it’s supposed to be better because there’s competition, but firstly there’s only about five big companies that get the contracts and secondly once they’ve got it there’s no competition for the duration.

 

[wingy]

The tragedy here is besides the direct workforce the exposure/liability to sub-contracting companies.
Often created by design /project managememt companies becoming middlemen beteeen client and delivery.
I'm sure in my industry things were better when that was inhouse where there was more spread across clients and less exposure to a bad one.
The current method encourages becoming relient on two or three who hold sway on the business building up large liability over unpaid past contracts, becoming their unofficial overdraft.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The tragedy here is besides the direct workforce the exposure/liability to sub-contracting companies.
Often created by design /project managememt companies becoming middlemen beteeen client and delivery.
I'm sure in my industry things were better when that was inhouse where there was more spread across clients and less exposure to a bad one.
The current method encourages becoming relient on two or three who hold sway on the business building up large liability over unpaid past contracts, becoming their unofficial overdraft.

Spot on. The government pays lip service to small contractors / SMEs but its policies leave them at the mercy of listed companies like Carillion, where short term profit is everything to the detriment of the small contractor.

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[Captain Dart]

Nothing will change without legislation or legally binding clauses in new contracts to stamp down on abuses.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Nothing will change without legislation or legally binding clauses in new contracts to stamp down on abuses.

It's already written into legislation:

Prompt payment policy - GOV.UK

The issue is, which small contactor is really going to start proceedings against a giant like Carillion?

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[chiefdave]

Public sector buyers are also worried about potential legal challenge from the likes of Carillion (they know how to spend money on legal fees and consultancy) if they rejected a bid based on Carillion's financial health.

Virgin Care, part of Sir Richard Branson’s business empire, appears to have been paid a settlement by the NHS after the healthcare group lost its bid to provide children’s services in Surrey.

Virgin Care Services started High Court proceedings against NHS England, Surrey County Council and the CCGs in November last year, after its bid failed.

It sued six Surrey clinical commissioning groups, NHS England and Surrey County Council.

 

[fernandopartridge]

In fairness chief that Virgin Care case was settled out of court so it's clear where the fault lay.

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[Sky Blue Pete]

Just heard 30000 businesses owed money by Carillion. Just disgusting

 

[shmmeee]

Just heard 30000 businesses owed money by Carillion. Just disgusting

Standard operating practice. Our biggest customers are also the ones that pay the latest.

 

[Covstu]

Its a sad story for the 20000 staff who are stuck in limbo and can lose benefits and pensions etc. Most construction companies are reliant on public funding to some extent given the housing demand but the fact they kept on getting work with the amount of debt hanging over them is obscene. We have picked up a few of their staff already and a long line of others are likely to follow suit.

 

[clint van damme]

Its a sad story for the 20000 staff who are stuck in limbo and can lose benefits and pensions etc. Most construction companies are reliant on public funding to some extent given the housing demand but the fact they kept on getting work with the amount of debt hanging over them is obscene. We have picked up a few of their staff already and a long line of others are likely to follow suit.

I read today that 30,000 small businesses and sub contractors could be affected, if that's true it's staggering.

 

[Covstu]

I read today that 30,000 small businesses and sub contractors could be affected, if that's true it's staggering.

not surprised however at least subbies can work elsewhere (general bid demand at the moment!) but it will be debt owed that could sink a few. Complete mess from start to finish.

 

[Captain Dart]

not surprised however at least subbies can work elsewhere (general bid demand at the moment!) but it will be debt owed that could sink a few. Complete mess from start to finish.

Maybe, but they may have made a large financial commitment based on the sub-contract and now there is no one to claim damages from.
Some of the subbies will be quite big companies in themselves.

 

[clint van damme]

this is quite staggering:
With PFI our hands are tied – so what can be done? — CHPI