Can someone explain the 150K offer to me? (1 Viewer)

italiahorse · Aug 14, 2013

When the offer came up I thought SISU would grab it with both hands.
For a couple of days I thought the offer would solve all the problems, however ....

I have seen comments that it was never offered to SISU, really?
I have heard from Appleton it was irrelevant, why?.
Why could this not be the basis of discussions to move things forward, it seemed to me like an olive branch from ACL.

kingharvest · Aug 14, 2013

in a word....empty

Sutty · Aug 14, 2013

My understanding:

ACL offered the deal to CCFC ltd, not to Holdings. Since ltd was in administration at the time, Sisu/Otium would never have been involved, only Appleton would have the authority to do anything with the offer.

Also, ACL used the offer as terms by which they would accept the CVA, which is illegal. That, I assume, is why Appleton said it was irrelevant, because the offer never had any legal grounding.

Gint11 · Aug 14, 2013

Just let it go pal. Theres been no common sense used since all this crap began. Mulling over it isnt going to help. End of the day they havent agreed it. You'll drive yourself potty otherwise. Keep looking forward

RFC · Aug 14, 2013

Was NEVER on offer because ACL refused to sign the CVA!

Godiva · Aug 14, 2013

italiahorse said:
When the offer came up I thought SISU would grab it with both hands.
For a couple of days I thought the offer would solve all the problems, however ....

I have seen comments that it was never offered to SISU, really?
I have heard from Appleton it was irrelevant, why?.
Why could this not be the basis of discussions to move things forward, it seemed to me like an olive branch from ACL.

Olive branch? Well that depends on who's side you're on.
As I understand it, the offer was £150K/yr plus matchday expenses = £400K/yr. No F/B or other income streams. Minimum agreement 10 years. Rent increase to $400k if promoted. No buying of Higgs shares. Take it or leave it. CVA dependant upon taking the 'offer'.

That wouldn't solve the overall problem and bring together club and stadium.
Poor offer for the long term viabillity of the club. It would ensure no progres for the next 10 years.

Buster · Aug 14, 2013

italiahorse said:
When the offer came up I thought SISU would grab it with both hands.
For a couple of days I thought the offer would solve all the problems, however ....

I have seen comments that it was never offered to SISU, really?
I have heard from Appleton it was irrelevant, why?.
Why could this not be the basis of discussions to move things forward, it seemed to me like an olive branch from ACL.

Just thinking the same myself . I remember it being anounced, and thought if Tim doesnt go for this it proves he is trying to distress ACL .
Surely if he had picked up the phone he could have sorted a deal and ACL would have signed the CVA

fernandopartridge · Aug 14, 2013

italiahorse said:
When the offer came up I thought SISU would grab it with both hands.
For a couple of days I thought the offer would solve all the problems, however ....

I have seen comments that it was never offered to SISU, really?
I have heard from Appleton it was irrelevant, why?.
Why could this not be the basis of discussions to move things forward, it seemed to me like an olive branch from ACL.

It is irrelevant in the context of not signing the CVA. I am not sure CVAs can be signed conditionally.

Buster · Aug 14, 2013

Godiva said:
Olive branch? Well that depends on who's side you're on.
As I understand it, the offer was £150K/yr plus matchday expenses = £400K/yr. No F/B or other income streams. Minimum agreement 10 years. Rent increase to $400k if promoted. No buying of Higgs shares. Take it or leave it. CVA dependant upon taking the 'offer'.

That wouldn't solve the overall problem and bring together club and stadium.
Poor offer for the long term viabillity of the club. It would ensure no progres for the next 10 years.

Dont you see how far SISU have moved the goalposts since they took over?

And b4 anybody says it ---- Yes 35 miles lol . Serious point though.

James Smith · Aug 14, 2013

Buster said:
Dont you see how far SISU have moved the goalposts since they took over?

And b4 anybody says it ---- Yes 35 miles lol . Serious point though.

Does anyone actually have anything factual (i.e. written) about the offer though e.g. whether F&B was included in this offer.

italiahorse · Aug 14, 2013

fernandopartridge said:
It is irrelevant in the context of not signing the CVA. I am not sure CVAs can be signed conditionally.

But they could have agreed to the deal prior to the CVA meeting.
For example. We ACL will sign off the CVA if you SISU agree to a 10 year deal. Sign at the bottom.
Perhaps some phased handover to SISU over a 10 year period at a price as agreed by an impartial valuer.
Then at the CVA meeting they just signed off the CVA as it stands.
It does not seem impossible to me.

Sisued · Aug 14, 2013

Can we get away from the f& b part as its bollocks. The match day profit it brings in is not as crucial as it is being heralded to be

italiahorse · Aug 14, 2013

italiahorse said:
But they could have agreed to the deal prior to the CVA meeting.
For example. We ACL will sign off the CVA if you SISU agree to a 10 year deal. Sign at the bottom.
Perhaps some phased handover to SISU over a 10 year period at a price as agreed by an impartial valuer.
Then at the CVA meeting they just signed off the CVA as it stands.
It does not seem impossible to me.

The Compass food contract could also be factored in over that 10 year period.
After all the SISU plan via Northampton, planning, planning appeals, build stadium is a 10 year plan.

italiahorse · Aug 14, 2013

I think I have seen what ACL have kinda offered but I have seen nothing reference what SISU have offered.

Godiva · Aug 14, 2013

Buster said:
Dont you see how far SISU have moved the goalposts since they took over?

And b4 anybody says it ---- Yes 35 miles lol . Serious point though.

I do - they haven't moved them far enough!

But I think we have different perception of what goalposts needs moving.
I think the long term viability of the club is dependant on the club not spending more than it earns. That's the single most important issue that need to be achieved. And it's totally independant of who the owners are. Be it sisu, PH4 or whoever.
I think that can only happen if the club owns the stadium and have control over all possible income streams in and around the stadium.
Bring in anybody who can pursuade the ccc and Higgs to sell ACL in full to the club and he will have my full backing. Sadly that is not looking likely to happen - too many different stakeholders with too many different agenda's prevents that from happening.
So the next best solution is to have owners who will build a new stadium to achieve the single most important issue - making the club financial long term viable.

SonOfSnoz · Aug 14, 2013

Acl offered deal to CCFC Ltd only, sadly the club is Holdings, now Otium.
Why is Cov such a mess?
First thing they should do, is make CCFC one company.
Sisu would never allow this, as how else can they make money!
Split & sive!

bigfatronssba · Aug 14, 2013

Godiva said:
Olive branch? Well that depends on who's side you're on.
As I understand it, the offer was £150K/yr plus matchday expenses = £400K/yr. No F/B or other income streams. Minimum agreement 10 years. Rent increase to $400k if promoted. No buying of Higgs shares. Take it or leave it. CVA dependant upon taking the 'offer'.

That wouldn't solve the overall problem and bring together club and stadium.
Poor offer for the long term viabillity of the club. It would ensure no progres for the next 10 years.

Matchday costs are irrelevant. Unless that is you think Northampton Town are paying bills for ccfc?

Godiva · Aug 14, 2013

italiahorse said:
I think I have seen what ACL have kinda offered but I have seen nothing reference what SISU have offered.

Sisu's offer was prior to administration:
Buy out the ACL mortgage and the Higgs shares.
They wanted to buy the mortgage at distressed value ... £5m is the speculative value. Then ACL chairman got a job as director at Yorkshire bank and ccc bought the mortgage at £14m.
They wanted to buy the Higgs shares, but it is unclear how much they offered. Some suggest £4m other suggest they offered the 'secret formel value' at around £8m but dependant on sisu taking over the YB mortgage at the distressed value.

So to me it seems that:
ccc bailing out ACL was the real game changer. Why did they do it? It looks like a deliberate step to make sure sisu never got part ownership of ACL - so this is then the point where reuniting club and stadium became impossible. This is the point when ccfc under sisu ownership would never become viable. From that point sisu's only option was to start planning their own stadium and to break the long lease with Ricoh.

Godiva · Aug 14, 2013

bigfatronssba said:
Matchday costs are irrelevant. Unless that is you think Northampton Town are paying bills for ccfc?

I was merely quoting the ACL offer.

chiefdave · Aug 14, 2013

The idea that this offer couldn't be considered legally as part of the CVA is clearly misdirection from SISU. It is obvious they can agree a deal before the CVA is signed as they had agreed one with Northampton. They could have accepted the offer, signed the agreement, ACL would have then signed the CVA, job done. It doesn't have to be part of the CVA, SISU are using that as a convenient get out.

SonOfSnoz · Aug 14, 2013

CCFC Ltd had the Ricoh lease, now that's liquidated, why would Acl offer a favourable deal to Sisu?
Common sense!
That's why Fisher always states Acl don't acknowledge Holdings!
Only solution is:
Sisu sell or build new stadium!

SIR ERNIE · Aug 14, 2013

"This is the point when ccfc under sisu ownership would never become viable"

Well if it wasn't viable at that point based on £150k rent it was never viable at any point.

And that's solely down to SISU.

davebart · Aug 14, 2013

Godiva said:
Sisu's offer was prior to administration:
Buy out the ACL mortgage and the Higgs shares.
They wanted to buy the mortgage at distressed value ... £5m is the speculative value. Then ACL chairman got a job as director at Yorkshire bank and ccc bought the mortgage at £14m.
They wanted to buy the Higgs shares, but it is unclear how much they offered. Some suggest £4m other suggest they offered the 'secret formel value' at around £8m but dependant on sisu taking over the YB mortgage at the distressed value.

So to me it seems that:
ccc bailing out ACL was the real game changer. Why did they do it? It looks like a deliberate step to make sure sisu never got part ownership of ACL - so this is then the point where reuniting club and stadium became impossible. This is the point when ccfc under sisu ownership would never become viable. From that point sisu's only option was to start planning their own stadium and to break the long lease with Ricoh.

I think you could point to an earlier game changer than that.

what about not paying any rent for 12 months, if I were a landlord that would certainly change my attitude to a lodger.

what about selling Juke, thus weakening an already weak team and getting us relegated - that was a bit of a game changer.

SonOfSnoz · Aug 14, 2013

Why did Robinson/Mcginnity sell off for such a low price?
JR would have been great!

Skyblueweeman · Aug 14, 2013

Buster said:
Dont you see how far SISU have moved the goalposts since they took over?

And b4 anybody says it ---- Yes 35 miles lol . Serious point though.

You're right, they have but what Godiva is saying is still correct. If the offer is as how Godiva says it is, then if you're in SISU and 'want' to bring the club and the stadium together, this wouldn't allow you to do so for 10 years. No point from their side.

WM

Godiva · Aug 14, 2013

SIR ERNIE said:
"This is the point when ccfc under sisu ownership would never become viable"

Well if it wasn't viable at that point based on £150k rent it was never viable at any point.

And that's solely down to SISU.

True - ever since we sold Highfield road ... and a good few years before ... the club haven't been viable. The idea behind moving from HR to RA was to gain more income streams to make sure the club became viable again. It all happened before sisu came here. Their biggest mistake was to ignore the opportunity to demand ACL being included in the takeover.

davebart · Aug 14, 2013

Skyblueweeman said:
You're right, they have but what Godiva is saying is still correct. If the offer is as how Godiva says it is, then if you're in SISU and 'want' to bring the club and the stadium together, this wouldn't allow you to do so for 10 years. No point from their side.

WM

SISU didn't try to buy into the ground though did they? They could have bought the Higgs share very easily in the five years before but they didn't. They could have paid a fair price for the mortgage but they didn't.

SonOfSnoz · Aug 14, 2013

Sisu just wanted a broken company to clear its debts through, that's its only purpose!
It's a hedge fund!
Be happy, we still operate in Northampton

RPHunt · Aug 14, 2013

Godiva said:
I think the long term viability of the club is dependant on the club not spending more than it earns.

The long term viability is indeed dependent on the club earning more than it spends - but it's only ever going to earn peanuts in Northampton.

davebart · Aug 14, 2013

Godiva said:
True - ever since we sold Highfield road ... and a good few years before ... the club haven't been viable. The idea behind moving from HR to RA was to gain more income streams to make sure the club became viable again. It all happened before sisu came here. Their biggest mistake was to ignore the opportunity to demand ACL being included in the takeover.

Their biggest mistake was getting involved with football at all.

SonOfSnoz · Aug 14, 2013

Sisu investing in CCFC has wiped millions of their debt, job done!
Just glad they can't be involved in more than one club or guess what.......
Northampton Town???

italiahorse · Aug 14, 2013

SIR ERNIE said:
"This is the point when ccfc under sisu ownership would never become viable"

Well if it wasn't viable at that point based on £150k rent it was never viable at any point.

And that's solely down to SISU.

They could pay the whole years rent with one matches takings.
Match day costs will be the same regardless where we are.
F&B is miniscule in the whole picture.
I just can't understand SISIU logic.

Godiva · Aug 14, 2013

RPHunt said:
The long term viability is indeed dependent on the club earning more than it spends - but it's only ever going to earn peanuts in Northampton.

But Sixfields is apparantly only an interim venue while building a new stadium. Income while there will be peanuts and the owners will surely have calculated their budgets accordingly.

SonOfSnoz · Aug 14, 2013

italiahorse said:
They could pay the whole years rent with one matches takings.
Match day costs will be the same regardless where we are.
F&B is miniscule in the whole picture.
I just can't understand SISIU logic.

CCFC is a debt cleanser for Sisu!
That's the nature & purpose of their business!

James Smith · Aug 14, 2013

Godiva said:
True - ever since we sold Highfield road ... and a good few years before ... the club haven't been viable. The idea behind moving from HR to RA was to gain more income streams to make sure the club became viable again. It all happened before sisu came here. Their biggest mistake was to ignore the opportunity to demand ACL being included in the takeover.

Okay we know from the ACL statement* that allegedly Joy wanted the freehold at her price

PWKH said:
Statement from the Board of Arena Coventry Limited
Mr Fisher has also now chosen to make factually inaccurate public statements relating to the meeting attended by Joy Seppala as well as ACL Board members on Thursday 25 July. It is interesting to note Mr Fisher’s failure to mention Ms Seppala’s verbal statement during this meeting, made in the presence of her own lawyers that the only circumstance in which the Club would return to the Ricoh would be upon SISU assuming full ownership of the venue without any negotiation on purchase price. Ms Seppala also stated at this meeting her intention to continue to threaten ACL and its shareholders with expensive litigation at every possible opportunity. Perhaps the fact that Mr Fisher was not himself present at this meeting has distorted his view of what was really discussed.

I've snipped out the relevant paragraph and it is my bolding.

Her price could be anything from £200m to £5-10m through to a half tube of toothpaste and a bag of day old doughnuts. I don't see how anyone can negotiate with someone like that, and makes it obvious, if true, that she isn't interested in a rent deal at the Ricoh at all and is just using our club as a bargaining chip for the freehold.

*which hasn't been denied by SISU although they may have said nothing due to contempt of court if they are appealing.

Can someone explain the 150K offer to me? (1 Viewer)

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