Butts Park Arena is new home (12 Viewers)

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
No, without ACL and anything operating underneath it.
For you ...... empty !!

You don't really need to not have ACL in place as you would own ACL and use them as your prop co. Once you've got ownership you don't need to keep a single person there if you don't want them.

I suspect it was more about the existing contracts, especially if any of them were front loaded so ACL had already had the benefit from them.

Seems odd that it was out of the question yet since Wasps took over the hotel operators have been binned and you don't hear mention of Compass while ACL have signed three new F&B deals. As everything is top secret for all we know Wasps wanted the same thing and got it.

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

italiahorse said:
Still can't understand how a business being liquidated and owes money can bid for a share in ACL?
Surely if there is money available it should be used to pay the debts?

The Skybluetalk finance course has failed?

I would imagine the company in administration had the right to bid. SISU, Otium or whatever they are called this week could make a bid via that company by saying they would give the administrator a token payment for that right to bid. Essentially then the administrator would be doing the right thing, selling an asset of the company to raise capital, just that the nature of the asset required him to place the bid on the buyers behalf.

torchomatic · Dec 15, 2015

Ha, ha. I actually LOL'd at that line. Coming from you of all people. So, it's not 2264 thanks to the Council then?

martcov said:
lying or bending over?

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

oldskyblue58 said:
Think everyone knew the rent was too high. Wouldn't dispute that it was. Hardly a vindication of TF though

The bank was getting twitchy and yet sent a letter saying they were not willing to discount a settlement figure to 12m because they felt there was a viable business there in view of the restructuring being done.

Yes they were over reliant on CCFC and yet still kept going when CCFC moved to Sixfields. Trouble is in doing that it attracted others. Yes cash flow was tight but they survived 2.5 years after CCFC stopped paying the contractual rent

It was all about creating a public perception to apply pressure to sell up cheaply to the apparently only game in town............ except it wasn't the only one

I'm talking about when he first turned up before it all kicked off.

As much as we all agree now that there was a problem with the rent at the time there were lots of comments that the club had agreed to it and there shouldn't be a problem. We even had PWKH come on here to tell us it was only the same as what we were paying at HR, conveniently leaving out details like it was the final rent at HR which contained huge penalties for moving out late.

There was clearly a concern about the bank loan, if there wasn't an eventual bail out wouldn't have been needed.

Point being if on day 1 when Fisher said the rent is too high, the bank are concerned and your over reliant on CCFC the Council and Higgs had agreed and come to the table to negotiate on that basis then maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. Of course we'll never know that but it can't be easy to negotiate when the other side keeps saying we don't need you, our business is fantastic when you know that's not the case.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
I think it's the 3 line Whip that you are slavishly following that's boring.

Really? Any news on my quotes? And Joy's letter?

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

chiefdave said:
I'm talking about when he first turned up before it all kicked off.

As much as we all agree now that there was a problem with the rent at the time there were lots of comments that the club had agreed to it and there shouldn't be a problem. We even had PWKH come on here to tell us it was only the same as what we were paying at HR, conveniently leaving out details like it was the final rent at HR which contained huge penalties for moving out late.

There was clearly a concern about the bank loan, if there wasn't an eventual bail out wouldn't have been needed.

Point being if on day 1 when Fisher said the rent is too high, the bank are concerned and your over reliant on CCFC the Council and Higgs had agreed and come to the table to negotiate on that basis then maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. Of course we'll never know that but it can't be easy to negotiate when the other side keeps saying we don't need you, our business is fantastic when you know that's not the case.

if you know that the business so bad is, then it is easy, you say we'll take our business elsewhere and the other side collapses.... Err no, the other side has enough financial power to pay off the loan and sit it out. Miscalculation.

Grendel · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
if you know that the business so bad is, then it is easy, you say we'll take our business elsewhere and the other side collapses.... Err no, the other side has enough financial power to pay off the loan and sit it out. Miscalculation.

No one paid off the loan.

Lucas will soon be reigning you in. You've become too obvious.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
No one paid off the loan.

Lucas will soon be reigning you in. You've become too obvious.

did Wasps have to pay the Yorkshire Bank loan off? Or did the council pay it off? Or, is it as you say, not paid off?

Grendel · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
did Wasps have to pay the Yorkshire Bank loan off? Or did the council pay it off? Or, is it as you say, not paid off?

Wasps found investors to pay it off. Wasps did not pay it off.

It is still not yet determined if moonstone have actually not invested in the bond. Where is the bond liability out if interest

It is also of interest the passion displayed by you when wasps are challenged in here. A passion that is never apparent at 3 PM on a Saturday afternoon.

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
did Wasps have to pay the Yorkshire Bank loan off? Or did the council pay it off? Or, is it as you say, not paid off?

Wasps paid the council off who had taken over the YB loan..

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Wasps found investors to pay it off. Wasps did not pay it off.

It is still not yet determined if moonstone have actually not invested in the bond. Where is the bond liability out if interest

It is also of interest the passion displayed by you when wasps are challenged in here. A passion that is never apparent at 3 PM on a Saturday afternoon.

Are the investors not investing in Wasps?
I'd better check my documents

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Wasps found investors to pay it off. Wasps did not pay it off.

It is still not yet determined if moonstone have actually not invested in the bond. Where is the bond liability out if interest

It is also of interest the passion displayed by you when wasps are challenged in here. A passion that is never apparent at 3 PM on a Saturday afternoon.

Did Wasps investors pay the Yorkshire Bank off? I thought the council paid it off and Wasps paid the council off. Don't know who bought Wasps' bonds - not interested in Wasps. My passion would have been apparent if you had have been in my Pub in Kiel on Sunday during the game, but you were probably too busy annoying people via your keyboard.

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
if you know that the business so bad is, then it is easy, you say we'll take our business elsewhere and the other side collapses.... Err no, the other side has enough financial power to pay off the loan and sit it out. Miscalculation.

Except they didn't have the financial power to pay off the loan. CCC had to bail them out.

CCC loaned them the money to pay off YB, originally stated to be money they had borrowed on ACL's behalf which turned out to be untrue as it was from council reserves. They made a big deal of what a fantastic deal it was for the taxpayer due to the millions that would be made in interest.

Wasps then borrowed £35m to pay their owner back and pay back the loan so it still hasn't in reality been paid back.

Astute · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Please provide a link that shows they have to have paid cancel contracts.

Put that in proper English and I will answer it.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

chiefdave said:
Except they didn't have the financial power to pay off the loan. CCC had to bail them out.

CCC loaned them the money to pay off YB, originally stated to be money they had borrowed on ACL's behalf which turned out to be untrue as it was from council reserves. They made a big deal of what a fantastic deal it was for the taxpayer due to the millions that would be made in interest.

Wasps then borrowed £35m to pay their owner back and pay back the loan so it still hasn't in reality been paid back.

I thought Mutton said they had enough reserves to fund the loan at the beginning. The loan has been paid back. The council is owed nothing. What Wasps do with their bonds and investors is not relevant to the council. All joint stock companies are funded by shareholders, if they buy something like vehicles, would you say they haven't really bought the vehicles because the money really belongs to the shareholders? Technically the vehicles do belong to the shareholders but for all intents and purposes they belong to the legal entity representing the shareholders interest. It is the same with the company which paid off the loan. It is financed by the Bondholders, but the company paid off the loan.

Astute · Dec 15, 2015

oldskyblue58 said:
They wanted the Ricoh without ACL that's what they meant by unencumbered and that applied to freehold or leasehold. They didn't need ACL because they were bringing in AIG ...... so they were not going to pay for ACL if at all possible and if they did it would be an absolute minimum. Trouble with that was because of all the interlinking contracts they also knew CCC/AEHC couldn't do that it would have cost a fortune to unravel ACL and neither CCC or AEHC wanted administration and the losses that would bring. All part of applying pressure which would have worked had there been no other option

I think I have worked out what you was trying to say. So here you go.

So does everyone believe someone that talks sense and knows what they are saying. Or do they listen to Grendel

Calista · Dec 15, 2015

Here are two links which might help to clarify all these freehold/leasehold questions, or (more likely) just start another series of abusive arguments. These confirm my recollection i.e. that SISU made clear that they were OK with a long lease, but that it had to be unencumbered / unfettered. That involved ACL and the contracts being cleared out of the way – which was up to the Council and Higgs to sort out at their expense. I had a strong recollection of a much more direct statement from Fisher to that effect (maybe at an SCG meeting?), but I can’t trace it and I really must go and do something better with my life

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/buying-land-new-coventry-city-6404266
http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/39920-Shareholder-s-meeting

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

chiefdave said:
Except they didn't have the financial power to pay off the loan. CCC had to bail them out.

CCC loaned them the money to pay off YB, originally stated to be money they had borrowed on ACL's behalf which turned out to be untrue as it was from council reserves. They made a big deal of what a fantastic deal it was for the taxpayer due to the millions that would be made in interest.

Wasps then borrowed £35m to pay their owner back and pay back the loan so it still hasn't in reality been paid back.

Ccc paid off the mortgage at the YB. ACL then had to pay the council back. Wasps bought ACL and ACL paid the loan back to the council.

Grendel · Dec 15, 2015

Astute said:
Put that in proper English and I will answer it.

Oh you have. It's another astute fact.

Grendel · Dec 15, 2015

Astute said:
I think I have worked out what you was trying to say. So here you go.

So does everyone believe someone that talks sense and knows what they are saying. Or do they listen to Grendel

"What you was trying to say" - wonderful

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Oh you have. It's another astute fact.

Back to Grendel facts...... Where are the posts which I supposedly made? Where is the letter where Joy drops unencumbered? Which is the question that you answered?

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
I thought Mutton said they had enough reserves to fund the loan at the beginning.

Think you might be getting Mutton and Matton mixed up. It was first claimed it had been borrowed from some (central government?) fund, that turned out to be untrue and it had been paid from council reserves. When that became apparent Matton claimed it was a cashflow issue.

martcov said:
if they buy something like vehicles, would you say they haven't really bought the vehicles because the money really belongs to the shareholders?

Not really the same thing is it. It would be like a company who was losing money wanting to buy a £14m private jet they can't afford so they take out a massive loan. While you could say they own the jet they also now have a debt to pay.

martcov said:
did Wasps have to pay the Yorkshire Bank loan off? Or did the council pay it off? Or, is it as you say, not paid off?

So to go back to your original point

martcov said:
if you know that the business so bad is, then it is easy, you say we'll take our business elsewhere and the other side collapses.... Err no, the other side has enough financial power to pay off the loan and sit it out. Miscalculation.

As I said the other side, ACL, didn't have the financial power to pay off the loan and sit it out. They had to be bailed out by CCC.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Wasps found investors to pay it off. Wasps did not pay it off.

It is still not yet determined if moonstone have actually not invested in the bond. Where is the bond liability out if interest

It is also of interest the passion displayed by you when wasps are challenged in here. A passion that is never apparent at 3 PM on a Saturday afternoon.

Certainly not for early round cup game or an evening jpt game eh Grendel?

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Dec 15, 2015

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
Certainly not for early round cup game or an evening jpt game eh Grendel?

Or for that matter an away game

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2015

Norman Lockhart said:
Here are two links which might help to clarify all these freehold/leasehold questions, or (more likely) just start another series of abusive arguments. These confirm my recollection i.e. that SISU made clear that they were OK with a long lease, but that it had to be unencumbered / unfettered. That involved ACL and the contracts being cleared out of the way – which was up to the Council and Higgs to sort out at their expense. I had a strong recollection of a much more direct statement from Fisher to that effect (maybe at an SCG meeting?), but I can’t trace it and I really must go and do something better with my life

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/buying-land-new-coventry-city-6404266
http://www.skybluestalk.co.uk/threads/39920-Shareholder-s-meeting

Extract from the Les Reid article in your link.

"Mr Fisher re-iterated Sisu boss Joy Seppala was calling for a sale of the “unincumbered freehold” owned by Coventry City Council."

Presumably when Grendull says this is "fabricated nonsense" he's accusing Les Reid of fabricating it. Its now been found in one of his old CT articles and in an old Twitter post of his.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

chiefdave said:
Think you might be getting Mutton and Matton mixed up. It was first claimed it had been borrowed from some (central government?) fund, that turned out to be untrue and it had been paid from council reserves. When that became apparent Matton claimed it was a cashflow issue.

Not really the same thing is it. It would be like a company who was losing money wanting to buy a £14m private jet they can't afford so they take out a massive loan. While you could say they own the jet they also now have a debt to pay.

So to go back to your original point

As I said the other side, ACL, didn't have the financial power to pay off the loan and sit it out. They had to be bailed out by CCC.

ACL through their 50% shareholder obviously did have the power to pay the mortgage and sit it out. Which is why SISU are squealing JR. They obviously were of the same opinion as you. The game changer was the loan. Hence the miscalculation and subsequent disaster.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
Extract from the Les Reid article in your link.

"Mr Fisher re-iterated Sisu boss Joy Seppala was calling for a sale of the “unincumbered freehold” owned by Coventry City Council."

Presumably when Grendull says this is "fabricated nonsense" he's accusing Les Reid of fabricating it. Its now been found in one of his old CT articles and in an old Twitter post of his.

Grendel is contradicting Les Reid whenever he can - without knowing it.

skybluetony176 · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
Grendel is contradicting Les Reid whenever he can - without knowing it.

I think the only thing that was fabricated nonsense was grendull stating that it was fabricated nonsense. It was clearly said and then repeated and in this case was attributed to Joy Seppala herself.

italiahorse · Dec 15, 2015

I think the Sisu deflectors have gone to bed.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

skybluetony176 said:
I think the only thing that was fabricated nonsense was grendull stating that it was fabricated nonsense. It was clearly said and then repeated and in this case was attributed to Joy Seppala herself.

Joy has remained constant throughout. Unencumbered and litigation.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Dec 15, 2015

Can't we just stop this thread now after all it's all going to kick off again in February?

chiefdave · Dec 15, 2015

martcov said:
ACL through their 50% shareholder obviously did have the power to pay the mortgage and sit it out. Which is why SISU are squealing JR. They obviously were of the same opinion as you. The game changer was the loan. Hence the miscalculation and subsequent disaster.

Nobody doubts it was a bail out do they? Thought that was pretty clear. Isn't the JR more to do with if the council were allowed to bail out ACL with SISU's argument being it distorted the market and CCC's being they were protecting their investment.

martcov · Dec 15, 2015

chiefdave said:
Nobody doubts it was a bail out do they? Thought that was pretty clear. Isn't the JR more to do with if the council were allowed to bail out ACL with SISU's argument being it distorted the market and CCC's being they were protecting their investment.

Distorting the market- screwed their plan to distress ACL. Total miscalculation is most accurate.

Astute · Dec 15, 2015

So as usual Grendel is proven to be wrong so he makes a sharp exit from a thread.

Oh dear......

Astute · Dec 15, 2015

Grendel said:
Please provide a link that shows they have to have paid cancel contracts.

Grendel said:
"What you was trying to say" - wonderful

Butts Park Arena is new home (12 Viewers)

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