Are the players "too good"? (1 Viewer)

SkyBlueGuy · Oct 29, 2012

This seems like a strange thing to say but it feels like it could have an element of trueth. We all saw that these players are capable of playing (the Birmingham match being the prime example - but also parts of the Arsenal match).

I was at the orient match and we made THEM look like Arsenal. We where out played for most of the match, and if they had a player who could finish then we could have been 3-4 goals down.

This just doesn't equate some how? We've seen these players before, most of them have played a lot of games in higher leagues. Christie was a prime example of this on Saturday. He looked really exiting in the games I saw him play last season (quick and not afraid the run with the ball), but against Layton he looked nervy and out of his comfort zone (mainly because they kept playing it in the air and he was having to try and head everything). Think I saw him run with the ball once.

We seemed terrified of loosing - every time the ball was in our half we smashed it back again (or straight up!). We hardly ever played the ball on the floor, and never from our half (although on the few occasions that we did we looked so much better!)

I don't buy that these players are not good enough. So maybe league 1 is proving a steep learning curve for the players - the tactics a very different and the teams are much fitter.

stupot07 · Oct 29, 2012

No they are certainly not "too good". They might not be poor players but they are not the right sort of players with the right set of attributes to get out of this league.

And re- Christie, he is only a kid still with only 1 seasons of experience behind him.

And we're probably terrified of losing because we'd in a relegation fight at this moment in time.

Otis · Oct 29, 2012

Sort of have the similar theory. Not exactly 'too good' but could do better in the right climate.

I think we have brought in players not suited to League One football, but ones that could possibly do better at a higher level. Adam Barton a case in point. Simply not suited to the cut and thrust of this division, but could do well at a team that finds more time on the ball and plays a passing game. Perhaps someone like Blackpool or such. Maybe.

League One is a bit mad and seems to be all about strength and pace. Many of the players we have brought in have neither.

Do think you have a kind of a point to a degree.

dongonzalos · Oct 29, 2012

SkyBlueGuy said:
This seems like a strange thing to say but it feels like it could have an element of trueth. We all saw that these players are capable of playing (the Birmingham match being the prime example - but also parts of the Arsenal match).

I was at the orient match and we made THEM look like Arsenal. We where out played for most of the match, and if they had a player who could finish then we could have been 3-4 goals down.

This just doesn't equate some how? We've seen these players before, most of them have played a lot of games in higher leagues. Christie was a prime example of this on Saturday. He looked really exiting in the games I saw him play last season (quick and not afraid the run with the ball), but against Layton he looked nervy and out of his comfort zone (mainly because they kept playing it in the air and he was having to try and head everything). Think I saw him run with the ball once.

We seemed terrified of loosing - every time the ball was in our half we smashed it back again (or straight up!). We hardly ever played the ball on the floor, and never from our half (although on the few occasions that we did we looked so much better!)

I don't buy that these players are not good enough. So maybe league 1 is proving a steep learning curve for the players - the tactics a very different and the teams are much fitter.

Maybe it is culture change. They were either signed by or brought into the team by a manager who was very keen on the passing game.

Please don't turn this into a AT debate.........

However fact of the matter is he wanted a passing game. I think he would have signed players with that in mind.

I don't honestly know what Robins style is.

Maybe some of these players have to get used to a different way of playing.

Maybe against arsenal and Birmingham. They had more freedom to play the passing game.

However against most league one teams you won't.

So with Christie maybe it is a case of getting used to a different manager. A different style of play and a different league. On top if that the pressure of the fact the squad have been under performing.

Hopefully a few more wins will erradicate a lot of those problems

fernandopartridge · Oct 29, 2012

SkyBlueGuy said:
This seems like a strange thing to say but it feels like it could have an element of trueth. We all saw that these players are capable of playing (the Birmingham match being the prime example - but also parts of the Arsenal match).

I was at the orient match and we made THEM look like Arsenal. We where out played for most of the match, and if they had a player who could finish then we could have been 3-4 goals down.

This just doesn't equate some how? We've seen these players before, most of them have played a lot of games in higher leagues. Christie was a prime example of this on Saturday. He looked really exiting in the games I saw him play last season (quick and not afraid the run with the ball), but against Layton he looked nervy and out of his comfort zone (mainly because they kept playing it in the air and he was having to try and head everything). Think I saw him run with the ball once.

We seemed terrified of loosing - every time the ball was in our half we smashed it back again (or straight up!). We hardly ever played the ball on the floor, and never from our half (although on the few occasions that we did we looked so much better!)

I don't buy that these players are not good enough. So maybe league 1 is proving a steep learning curve for the players - the tactics a very different and the teams are much fitter.

How can they be 'too good' you complete balloon. They LOST 6 fucking 1 at Arsenal.

SkyBlueGuy · Oct 29, 2012

fernandopartridge said:
How can they be 'too good' you complete balloon. They LOST 6 fecking 1 at Arsenal.

Balloon! Lol? We did loose to Arsenal (were you expecting a win?) but we also played some good attacking football. I think you'll find that the consensus was that we acquitted ourselves pretty well considering the strength of the team we were playing. Did you go to the match? (I did).

We held them off for a good amount of time and when they scored it was breaking on the counter attack. This was only because city were pushing so hard for a goal. They passed the ball well and moved it around the field.

When was the last time you saw them do that in league 1?

fernandopartridge · Oct 29, 2012

SkyBlueGuy said:
Balloon! Lol? We did loose to Arsenal (were you expecting a win?) but we also played some good attacking football. I think you'll find that the consensus was that we acquitted ourselves pretty well considering the strength of the team we were playing. Did you go to the match? (I did).

We held them off for a good amount of time and when they scored it was breaking on the counter attack. This was only because city were pushing so hard for a goal. They passed the ball well and moved it around the field.

When was the last time you saw them do that in league 1?

We lost 6-1. I can't see how that has shown us to be anything better than a mediocre League 1 team, can you?

Being 'good' is far more than just raising your game against the big boys, a good player will play that way consistently. As such, a player can't be judged purely on his physical capability but on his mental capability too.

Our players have shown time and time again that they're lacking in the latter.

JWC · Oct 29, 2012

The long ball game on Saturday was simply a try something different approach from Robins in my opinion. We tried the passing game v Brentford and couldn't get it out of midfield, we kept giving it away leaving them looking dangerous on the break. It simply didn't work.

I could understand leaving Callum Ball out at Orient after he was pretty much non-existent v Brentford, but think he was more suited to Saturday's game than McSheff. I applauded the changes, at least Robins isn't scared to change things when it isn't working and try something new, but I would have opted for someone more threatening in the air than McSheffrey.

SkyBlueGuy · Oct 29, 2012

fernandopartridge said:
We lost 6-1. I can't see how that has shown us to be anything better than a mediocre League 1 team, can you?

Being 'good' is far more than just raising your game against the big boys, a good player will play that way consistently. As such, a player can't be judged purely on his physical capability but on his mental capability too.

Our players have shown time and time again that they're lacking in the latter.

The point I am making is not totally at odds wih what you are saying. I believe the problem is quite possibly a mental one (and yes mental capability is one of the marks of a good player), but they players do not lack in technical ability, skill etc.

The score at Arsenal did flatter them slightly. We were undone by exceptional pace and finishing. There was no point in the game where we were bein battered, and we could have scored more than we did.

I think our players are used to playing games at a higher level, with more space and time on the ball. League 1 doesn't work like that. They close down quickly and high up the pitxh as it is rare to find a player who can turn your players inside out (ala Taarabt when he was in the championship). It's just a different way of playing and it doesnt suit our players. Hence I don't think you can say they aren't good enough, just not right for this league and still learning.

Astute · Oct 29, 2012

To me it is like Bigi playing at a higher level and doing OK, but he would struggle in this division.

Covstu · Oct 29, 2012

i suppose the next logical question would have been, if AT brought these players in at christmas last year, would we have got relegated?? maybe not??

SkyBlueGuy · Oct 29, 2012

Covstu said:
i suppose the next logical question would have been, if AT brought these players in at christmas last year, would we have got relegated?? maybe not??

You could be right (although lets not speculate as this thread will break down if we do!)

pusbccfc · Oct 29, 2012

I think you have a point.
We have many 'proven' players for this league.
Players like Baker, cody and Murphy all have experience at lower levels.

On paper before the start of the season I said I believed we had a better squad than the previous year...
I thought that players like Brown, Ball and Barton would champ standards let alone Kilbane and Elliott.

A lot of players have 'underperformed' this season.
The reason I believe this, is because of the physicality.
We are crying out for a target man like Platt to play alongside McGoldrick and Ball doesn't fit the key.

Our wide backs (hussey and Clarke) both have struggled. In my opinion this is due to their height and power.
In midfield we have missed Norwood. Clarke hasn't been half the player since he's gone. I don't believe he was ever a very good defender, but his first touch and skill was one of the best on a cov acad player in years.
This linked with Norwoods quality passes was a big threat to opposition teams.

We also have missed the bite. Jennings was brought in to be that hard-working, nuisance in the CM. He hasn't shown that, he's more of a break up of play type man compared to Deegan/Doyle.

stupot07 · Oct 29, 2012

Covstu said:
i suppose the next logical question would have been, if AT brought these players in at christmas last year, would we have got relegated?? maybe not??

Yes we would have, you need the desire and fight when in a relegation battle, they are not showing that now let alone in a relegation dog fight last season.

SkyBlueGuy · Oct 29, 2012

One thing I noticed about many plays on Saturday was the comparative soft touch in tackling etc (particulaltly Baker). We put tackles in, the ball would bounce loose, and then they would pick it up again because they were always first to the second ball.

Also we left so much space in the centre of the park at times. They left us no time on the ball in the centre, we just let them have it (particulaltly on second balls - oh god I think I'm channelling Aidy!)

dongonzalos · Oct 29, 2012

SkyBlueGuy said:
You could be right (although lets not speculate as this thread will break down if we do!)

I am scared to express my opinion on this one. As I am sure I will be called delusional, insane, that I should be fined 100 etc etc .........

Gaz · Oct 29, 2012

Astute said:
To me it is like Bigi playing at a higher level and doing OK, but he would struggle in this division.

Absolutely.

.

Brighton Sky Blue · Oct 29, 2012

Best analogy to this at the moment is Rangers-it's taken them till last Saturday just to register an away win!

stupot07 · Oct 29, 2012

Perhaps wood, Cameron, Cody, baker, Sheffers, Thomas, Christie, Clarke, hussey, ROD, Bell were all too good for the Championship....just not suited to that type of football.

Otis · Oct 29, 2012

Steady on now!!!

JulianDarbyFTW · Oct 29, 2012

I've been making a similar point to anyone who will listen all season. I think AT bought players who would do a Championship job as they'd have more time on the ball to pick a pass, shot etc. Unfortunately we're lacking the pace and physicality for L1, and teams press quicker and harder to make up for a lesser ability. We'll never know how true it is, at the end of the day, as MR will (hopefully) stamp his own authority on the squad by the time we go back up, whenever that may be. On a side note, MR has a 40% win ratio so far, which is what sections of the forum asked for, so why is there so much negativity and a growing discontent with the manager? He says we're playing poorly and still hits the win ratio 'target' so surely things can only improve..?

johnwillomagic · Oct 29, 2012

I cannot believe anyone who was at the Orient game genuinely can say Orient should have been four up??? They were piss poor we were not mauch better but had the clearer chances for most of the game.....if Sheff had buried his one on one would have been 2-0 up and more than comfortable. If anything we should have been about three up at half time!

The fact that we were not made for a nervy second half but for me Orient offered nothing much going forward and our centre halfs by and large had it under control.....not sure Orient had four shots on target which you sort of need to say they could have been 4-0 up?

and to answer question no the players are certainly not too good, they were not by and large last season and when we came across a premiership reseve/youth team this year we were well and truly battered! League 1 is about the level for most of the players......think they can get better and produce more under MR that they have to date.

SkyBlueGuy · Oct 29, 2012

johnwillomagic said:
I cannot believe anyone who was at the Orient game genuinely can say Orient should have been four up??? They were piss poor we were not mauch better but had the clearer chances for most of the game.....if Sheff had buried his one on one would have been 2-0 up and more than comfortable. If anything we should have been about three up at half time!

The fact that we were not made for a nervy second half but for me Orient offered nothing much going forward and our centre halfs by and large had it under control.....not sure Orient had four shots on target which you sort of need to say they could have been 4-0 up?

and to answer question no the players are certainly not too good, they were not by and large last season and when we came across a premiership reseve/youth team this year we were well and truly battered! League 1 is about the level for most of the players......think they can get better and produce more under MR that they have to date.

Sorry but to described that Arsenal side as a reserve/youth team is a bit strong. Full England internationals Oxlade-Chamberlain and Wallcott, full Russia international Arsharvin as well as multi-million pound signing Giroud to name but a few...

Grendel · Oct 29, 2012

This is a ludricous argument.

If a team is better than other teams it ends up top of the pile.

If Man Utd or Chelsea were in this league would the players be "too good" and struggle? No.

Would any of our players be hotly persued by Championship teams - no.

It is a much poorer side than last seasons and would be relegated without trace. The players signed are very sub standard footballers and the notion they are too good - forget it.

The OP quotes Arsenal as evidence of this. We lost 6 -1. Teams of our level going to the Emitirates and similar places have done much better.

lordsummerisle · Oct 29, 2012

Grendel said:
This is a ludricous argument.

If a team is better than other teams it ends up top of the pile.

If Man Utd or Chelsea were in this league would the players be "too good" and struggle? No.

Would any of our players be hotly persued by Championship teams - no.

It is a much poorer side than last seasons and would be relegated without trace. The players signed are very sub standard footballers and the notion they are too good - forget it.

The OP quotes Arsenal as evidence of this. We lost 6 -1. Teams of our level going to the Emitirates and similar places have done much better.

That's all well and good, but could Arsenal have been 2-0 up at home to Bury with a display of scintillating football never before seen on a football field?

I think not.

Grendel · Oct 29, 2012

dongonzalos said:
Maybe it is culture change. They were either signed by or brought into the team by a manager who was very keen on the passing game.

So which players did he sign that are examples of the "passing game"!!

Grendel · Oct 29, 2012

lordsummerisle said:
That's all well and good, but could Arsenal have been 2-0 up at home to Bury with a display of scintillating football never before seen on a football field?

I think not.

Nor me. Soon history will be re-written and we will have won that game and been promoted on 46 points.

Sutty · Oct 29, 2012

The individual players are good enough - the blend of the team is not.

psgm1 · Oct 29, 2012

Astute said:
To me it is like Bigi playing at a higher level and doing OK, but he would struggle in this division.

Never held such inane twaddle in my entire life!

You'll be saying rooney wouldn't get into the squad next!

There is a REASON better players are known as better players - because they are BETTER!

NIMROD

psgm1 · Oct 29, 2012

Thorn brought a squad based on longball, yet forgot that requires tall front men!

He tried passing football and it didn't work. He tried too many youngsters - that too failed.

Hence very few young lads - even though there is a lad called Louis Garner who is leaps and bounds above the current crop.

georgehudson · Oct 30, 2012

imho we have not had a motivator on the pitch for too many years,
& this would come at a cost, something our owners would be reticent about,
MR hinted that the general on the pitch may not be at the club yet,
so time for another soundbite from F & W

dongonzalos · Oct 30, 2012

Grendel said:
So which players did he sign that are examples of the "passing game"!!

Re read the comment

ricohman · Oct 30, 2012

fernandopartridge said:
How can they be 'too good' you complete balloon. They LOST 6 fecking 1 at Arsenal.

We were still in the game at half time. Arsenals superior fitness and speed on the counter was out only downfall

lordsummerisle · Oct 30, 2012

ricohman said:
We were still in the game at half time. Arsenals superior fitness and speed on the counter was out only downfall

Well, you could possibly change the name Arsenal for virtually every team we've played this season and the comment would be equally valid, just doesn't look quite so impressive when it's:

"We were still in the game at half time. Yeovil's/Sheffield United's, Bury's, Tranmere's, Stevenage's etc, etc., superior fitness and speed on the counter was our only downfall"

Astute · Oct 30, 2012

psgm1 said:
Never held such inane twaddle in my entire life!

You'll be saying rooney wouldn't get into the squad next!

There is a REASON better players are known as better players - because they are BETTER!

NIMROD

As usual. Attacking what I say and showing your lack of knowledge. Bigi is better when he has a bit more time on the ball. He would get knocked off the ball all the time in Div3. He isn't bigi nough for this division. The same problem we have with other players we have.

Are the players "too good"? (1 Viewer)

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