Anyone still believe..... (1 Viewer)

ceetee · Oct 16, 2017

I posted this on another thread but it seems more relevant here

"Creativity comes from midfield mostly.
We don't have such a player, or if we do, he isn't allowed to play that way.
Our midfield is geared up to protecting the defence. That's why we have a low goals against.
A lot of our goals against last year came from midfield mistakes."

As for Jones, I think scoring that hat trick has made him think he can score every time.

And back to the OP I think someone pointed out elsewhere that last years promotions were not a result of 20 goal strikers.

steve82 · Oct 16, 2017

ceetee said:
I posted this on another thread but it seems more relevant here

"Creativity comes from midfield mostly.
We don't have such a player, or if we do, he isn't allowed to play that way.
Our midfield is geared up to protecting the defence. That's why we have a low goals against.
A lot of our goals against last year came from midfield mistakes."

As for Jones, I think scoring that hat trick has made him think he can score every time.

And back to the OP I think someone pointed out elsewhere that last years promotions were not a result of 20 goal strikers.

It's true a 20 goal man is a luxury to complement a good side and don't necessarily guarantee promotion as Barnet have proved with John Akinde the last few seasons.

However those promoted sides had goal scorers from all areas from wide players to central defenders.

I don't see us being able to replicate them figures currently, especially as we've no one who can deliver a good set piece. Kelly is reasonable, but JJ rarely delivers and beats the first man.

Without them different types of goals that it's a good few goals missing from your end if season total and you'll see more goals from set pieces as we go into the winter months in this league and so far we've only one I believe, a corner, Grimmer's goal at Grimsby.

In the wide areas our 3 in behind the no 9 we're lacking goals also if you take JJ's opening day heroics (1 goal in 12 games) with Nazon excelling with his 4 goals in the last 6 games.

This is where our league goals have come from.
Nazon 4 goals
Jones 4 goals
McNulty 1 goal
Grimmer 1 goal
Doyle 1 goal
Kelly Evans 1 goal
Vincenti 1 goal
Own goal 1 goal.

Mucca Mad Boys · Oct 16, 2017

ceetee said:
I posted this on another thread but it seems more relevant here

"Creativity comes from midfield mostly.
We don't have such a player, or if we do, he isn't allowed to play that way.
Our midfield is geared up to protecting the defence. That's why we have a low goals against.
A lot of our goals against last year came from midfield mistakes."

As for Jones, I think scoring that hat trick has made him think he can score every time.

And back to the OP I think someone pointed out elsewhere that last years promotions were not a result of 20 goal strikers.

We do have such a player, he’s just injured for the season...

dongonzalos · Oct 16, 2017

Grendel said:
Well you hate Robins as he exposed your fat mate for what he was and it's a grudge you still harbour.

I actually think MR is an alright manager who had made a mistake on McNulty. It has taken him longer to reasoned this than I would have hoped.
However he has finally realised it. Come January he needs to address it.
I also agree there are times when we don't need two defensive midfielders

Nick · Oct 16, 2017

dongonzalos said:
I actually think MR is an alright manager who had made a mistake on McNulty. It has taken him longer to reasoned this than I would have hoped.
However he has finally realised it. Come January he needs to address it.
I also agree there are times when we don't need two defensive midfielders

What do you mean taken him longer to respond to this than you would have hoped?

dongonzalos · Oct 16, 2017

Nick said:
What do you mean taken him longer to respond to this than you would have hoped?

It took McNulty to get injured for him to be out the team.
Also for the first time Robins has stated that the strikers are not doing their job.
So it's the first time he acknowledged it.
He will push for a new striker in January if things stay as they are.

Esoterica · Oct 16, 2017

dongonzalos said:
It took McNulty to get injured for him to be out the team.
Also for the first time Robins has stated that the strikers are not doing their job.
So it's the first time he acknowledged it.
He will push for a new striker in January if things stay as they are.

He also admitted they're only half chances and that not scoring away from home is his problem.

Londonccfcfan · Oct 16, 2017

dongonzalos said:
I actually think MR is an alright manager who had made a mistake on McNulty. It has taken him longer to reasoned this than I would have hoped.
However he has finally realised it. Come January he needs to address it.
I also agree there are times when we don't need two defensive midfielders

I’m as disappointed as anyone with McNulty so far, but I feel it’s too premature to judge him as flop this season especially as he did get injured for a few games.

I for one do see the potential in him, his quality is there to see, seems to be a clever type forward. I think he deserves a fair crack. One good match and he could be on fire I firmly believe that.

Most importantly Robins has huge faith in him. The way the players have recently backed the strikers Doyle and Rod, I’m sure there’s lots more in the locker.

Btw I feel the shit and abuse he got at Chesterfield was disgusting was not a good atmosphere. And doesn’t bring the best out of him. Felt a bit sorry for him to be honest cos you could see he was trying his best, working and running his socks off.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

Londonccfcfan said:
I’m as disappointed as anyone with McNulty so far, but I feel it’s too premature to judge him as flop this season especially as he did get injured for a few games.

I for one do see the potential in him, his quality is there to see, seems to be a clever type forward. I think he deserves a fair crack. One good match and he could be on fire I firmly believe that.

Most importantly Robins has huge faith in him. The way the players have recently backed the strikers Doyle and Rod, I’m sure there’s lots more in the locker.

Btw I feel the shit and abuse he got at Chesterfield was disgusting was not a good atmosphere. And doesn’t bring the best out of him. Felt a bit sorry for him to be honest cos you could see he was trying his best, working and running his socks off.

Don't get me wrong McNulty is a good player at this level. However you want him playing alongside or just behind your main striker. You do not want him as your main striker. He was signed as our Stella striker. He was signed to be our 20 goal man. That was a mistake that I know think will be rectified in January.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

Esoterica said:
These teams we struggle to break down are just sitting deep. Early season it was to counter Jones so as not to give him the space to knock it round his marker and run after it but I think everyone now knows how deep our central midfield sit so the teams who are happy with a point against us are now also doing it to further stretch the gap between our already defensive central midfield and the strikers. There's a few of consequences to that:

* There's no room to get in behind the defence and drop a ball over the top (although it doesn't stop Doyle trying it 4 or 5 times a game!). Last time I remember us managing that was Swindon who had started very high up the pitch and after Biamou got in twice in 5 minutes they soon dropped deeper.
* Our midfield very rarely run beyond our strikers - it's a key element missing from our game all season. Doyle's done it once and scored but most of the time we're just too deep to do it.
* Jones gets the ball very high up the pitch and that means Grimmer doesn't actually get past him very often to take a man away as he's got to cover the whole pitch just to get there. There's no midfield inside to pass to either as they're miles back and so we've had this repetitive situation in every game where his 3 options are try and beat two men, shoot from 20-25 yards or knock the ball back 15 yards to Grimmer which slows the whole attack down as it usually means the ball going back across the back 4. Jones has almost become a victim of his own success this season now too - his decision making of when to pass, dribble or shoot is quite poor recently, like he feels he has to do something amazing every time he gets the ball.
* Our attacks all get squashed up on the top of the box with nowhere to go and so often the ball is cut back for a long shot.
I've linked it a couple of times before (apologies to all for that) but this red empty oval is 90% of our attacking problems.

View attachment 8158
MR did an awesome job getting the squad together early and on longer contracts and I genuinely believe the recruitment has been excellent, including strikers. He's clearly instilled a good team spirit too. We're doing ok on the pitch as well - defence is tight, we've had some good victories against the better teams who have attacked us and given us a little more space but we've dropped a lot of points now against lower league defensive teams or teams who sit deep after scoring an early goal. There's still loads of time to go in the season but what is concerning me is not so much the points we've dropped, our position in the league or how the teams around us are doing but that so far we've just done the same thing all season, whoever we're playing, home or away. Any personnel changes have been as a result of injuries and we're not showing any adaptability to situations either proactively or reactively other than pushing Kelly higher after high time. My worry with it is that this stubborness will cost us over the course of the season - the fine margins between autos and playoffs, and I'm increasingly worried that MR isn't showing willing to make the tweaks which are clearly needed against negative teams.

A very well thought out post.
Only thing I disagree with you is the strikers bit. Otherwise for the rest you are spot on.

singers_pore · Oct 17, 2017

McNulty seems to get knocked off the ball very easily. The Duck seems to have a lot more upper body strength.

Esoterica · Oct 17, 2017

singers_pore said:
McNulty seems to get knocked off the ball very easily. The Duck seems to have a lot more upper body strength.

Think that's true but is unfairly exposed because we've been playing a style that just doesn't play to McNulty's strengths. He's not a target man, he's a clever, pass and move style footballer who can beat a man for pace with a little bit of trickery. Strengths that are largely neutralised when the play is compressed on the edge of the oppositions box which a lot of our attacks are. His run and set up for Ponticelli's goal and the Chesterfield chance where he skinned his man and unfortunately put it inches wide are 2 good examples of those strengths.

stupot07 · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
Don't get me wrong McNulty is a good player at this level. However you want him playing alongside or just behind your main striker. You do not want him as your main striker. He was signed as our Stella striker. He was signed to be our 20 goal man. That was a mistake that I know think will be rectified in January.

Which proven 20 goal a season striker are we going to sign in the inflated January transfer window?

Perhaps we can bring Cody back lol.

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stupot07 · Oct 17, 2017

Esoterica said:
Think that's true but is unfairly exposed because we've been playing a style that just doesn't play to McNulty's strengths. He's not a target man, he's a clever, pass and move style footballer who can beat a man for pace with a little bit of trickery. Strengths that are largely neutralised when the play is compressed on the edge of the oppositions box which a lot of our attacks are. His run and set up for Ponticelli's goal and the Chesterfield chance where he skinned his man and unfortunately put it inches wide are 2 good examples of those strengths.

Agree with that. I've said from the start I'm not sure what our style of play is or how we as a team are looking to score goals - we dont get crosses in, we dont look to slip strikers through, we're poor at set pieces, It seems our pattern of play is to give it to Jones to cut in and shoot - that makes it very narrow, means we aren't creating that many chances for the strikers, and also means that teams drop deep and push Jones inside meaning there's no space behind to slip a striker in.

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dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

stupot07 said:
Which proven 20 goal a season striker are we going to sign in the inflated January transfer window?

Perhaps we can bring Cody back lol.

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I take it you had heard of every striker who has scored 20 goals at this level and expected them to do it?
Lol

Esoterica · Oct 17, 2017

stupot07 said:
Agree with that. I've said from the start I'm not sure what our style of play is or how we as a team are looking to score goals - we dont get crosses in, we dont look to slip strikers through, we're poor at set pieces, It seems our pattern of play is to give it to Jones to cut in and shoot - that makes it very narrow, means we aren't creating that many chances for the strikers, and also means that teams drop deep and push Jones inside meaning there's no space behind to slip a striker in.

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Think Robins has been caught flat footed by just how many teams are happy with a point against us even when it's their home game. We're desperate for some natural width on the left side (Vincenti, Jones and DKE all regularly drift inside) to laterally stretch a team's back 4 when they sit deep to make a little space for the strikers, but even then we have to have a midfield option to pass to in the middle or we just end up going backwards all the way round the back 4. Think Vincenti will start there tonight but if it doesn't work out we'll see Haynes there on Saturday or maybe even as a 20 minute sub tonight. Played and scored from left midfield yesterday for the U23s.
Can't believe Jones scoring a hattrick on the opening day has actually turned into a negative for us!

stupot07 · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
I take it you had heard of every striker who has scored 20 goals at this level and expected them to do it?
Lol

So which guarenteed 20 goal striker are we going to being in?

Your OP statrs the need of a proven 20 goal a season striker. And you say that Robins recognises it and will bring one in in January.

dongonzalos said:
We are not missing a proven 20 goal a season striker?

dongonzalos said:
<snip> He was signed to be our 20 goal man. That was a mistake that I know think will be rectified in January.

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stupot07 · Oct 17, 2017

Esoterica said:
Think Robins has been caught flat footed by just how many teams are happy with a point against us even when it's their home game. We're desperate for some natural width on the left side (Vincenti, Jones and DKE all regularly drift inside) to laterally stretch a team's back 4 when they sit deep to make a little space for the strikers, but even then we have to have a midfield option to pass to in the middle or we just end up going backwards all the way round the back 4. Think Vincenti will start there tonight but if it doesn't work out we'll see Haynes there on Saturday or maybe even as a 20 minute sub tonight. Played and scored from left midfield yesterday for the U23s.
Can't believe Jones scoring a hattrick on the opening day has actually turned into a negative for us!

Yeah agree with that. Problem is Haynes is left footed too (and Reid if we recalled him), so still means Jones cutting and not stretching the pitch and not getting balls into the box from both wings. we really need to sign a right footed winger in January to add balance and stretch teams.

Neither Vincenti or DeKE are wingers, although it doesn't help that Robins tends to start them and Jones on the wrong side. It narrows the game before we've even kicked off.

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Grendel · Oct 17, 2017

stupot07 said:
So which guarenteed 20 goal striker are we going to being in?

Your OP statrs the need of a proven 20 goal a season striker. And you say that Robins recognises it and will bring one in in January.

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Baker

steve82 · Oct 17, 2017

stupot07 said:
Yeah agree with that. Problem is Haynes is left footed too (and Reid if we recalled him), so still means Jones cutting and not stretching the pitch and not getting balls into the box from both wings. we really need to sign a right footed winger in January to add balance and stretch teams.

Neither Vincenti or DeKE are wingers, although it doesn't help that Robins tends to start them and Jones on the wrong side. It narrows the game before we've even kicked off.

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I firmly believe Haynes is the key to our issue, JJ plays predominantly on the right while switching from time to time but Haynes can run that left flank and whip a cross in, we've no one doing that currently.

Worth noting that Haynes has scored more goals with his right foot than his favoured left foot.

Don't think we will see it tonight unless it's the last 10 minutes, Vincenti is more likely to start instead of Kelly-Evans tho if he was ever found after going missing Saturday

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

If anyone had any doubts that Robins himself thinks it an issue with the strikers as oppose to actually creating chances....

Robins wants Sky Blue strikers to free the shackles

Nick · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
If anyone had any doubts that Robins himself thinks it an issue with the strikers as oppose to actually creating chances....

Robins wants Sky Blue strikers to free the shackles

You keep saying this, but are you watching the games or listening to everything focusing on certain bits he says about strikers? The issue is creating chances for the strikers to finish.

Work on finishing all week, but if there is no change to the way we create chances we should be working on 40 yard screamers as that is what we are resorting to.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

stupot07 said:
So which guarenteed 20 goal striker are we going to being in?

Your OP statrs the need of a proven 20 goal a season striker. And you say that Robins recognises it and will bring one in in January.

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I am happy with both posts from myself they cover what I want somebody who will put the ball in the back of the net.
It was clear we were missing that before the season started.
I think the likes of yourself was saying we didn't need it look at the likes of Burton ect...

I would be happy with a player who has consistently done the business but recently found themselves out of their current managers plans on loan.
A player who has done it in the past at this level over a whole season and has moved up a level but now struggles.
Or a player who most will have never heard of but MR and his staff know would do the business.
However your puss take of Cody is a good example having previously done it at this level with 25 goals in 41 games.
He went to the level above struggled to make his mark and became available for loan back at this level in January.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

Nick said:
You keep saying this, but are you watching the games or listening to everything focusing on certain bits he says about strikers?

what are the other quotes in this latest article about the current situation that I should be focusing on? It is his quotes all about the strikers?
Yes listening to the games also watching when I can work dependant.
Combined with the compelling stats.

Don't get me wrong my personal view is we should have two defensive midfielders up until 55-60 mins in a game. Then introduce a more attacking midfielder for one of them.
I also feel if you are going to find out if Ponti is good enough he needs more than 5 minutes.
I also feel when you are dominating a game so much.( not recent ones) that you should really go for it substitutions and tactics wise if you are failing to break them down.
All of the above on top of McNulty was a mistake he is not a 20 goal striker at this level. Which I hope Robins will address in January.

Nick · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
what are the other quotes in this latest article about the current situation that I should be focusing on? It is his quotes all about the strikers?
Yes listening to the games also watching when I can work dependant.
Combined with the compelling stats.

Don't get me wrong my personal view is we should have two defensive midfielders up until 55-60 mins in a game. Then introduce a more attacking midfielder for one of them.
I also feel if you are going to find out if Ponti is good enough he needs more than 5 minutes.
I also feel when you are dominating a game so much.( not recent ones) that you should really go for it substitutions and tactics wise if you are failing to break them down.
All of the above on top of McNulty was a mistake he is not a 20 goal striker at this level. Which I hope Robins will address in January.

What are the compelling stats?

A compelling stat would be how many proper chances are our strikers missing. I am talking clear cut one on one, just been put clean through chances that they are missing week in, week out?

You are using shot stats, like many others and thinking it is strikers missing good chances.

Esoterica · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
If anyone had any doubts that Robins himself thinks it an issue with the strikers as oppose to actually creating chances....

Robins wants Sky Blue strikers to free the shackles

I actually find that a really worrying interview. Like he hasn't got any idea of what he can do to improve the situation. 'We've been doing a lot of finishing practice and that hasn't worked so this week we're going to try not doing finishing practice and just hope that something goes in off Biamou's arse'. Brilliant.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

Esoterica said:
I actually find that a really worrying interview. Like he hasn't got any idea of what he can do to improve the situation. 'We've been doing a lot of finishing practice and that hasn't worked so this week we're going to try not doing finishing practice and just hope that something goes in off Biamou's arse'. Brilliant.

I thought you might to be fair
No mention of the set up or defensive mind set.
For what's it's worth I agree with many of your points on our defensive set up.
N
I just happen to think we also need a decent goalscorer.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

Nick said:
What are the compelling stats?

A compelling stat would be how many proper chances are our strikers missing. I am talking clear cut one on one, just been put clean through chances that they are missing week in, week out?

You are using shot stats, like many others and thinking it is strikers missing good chances.

No there has been games where we have had good chances for our strikers to score and they have fluffed it.
Not just the games we have lost but in those we have drew and won.
The stats generally show we dominate possession and yes have more shots than the opposition.
Yes those shots might be half chances.
However there has been decent chances over the season as well.
I disagree with you that a decent goalscorer would not be the answer.
It still wouldn't be perfect for me but it would get us in the top three.
A decent goalscorer plus a less defensive outlook at the right time would win us the league.
A more attacking outlook with these players may if we are lucky get us the play offs
(IMO)

Nick · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
No there has been games where we have had good chances for our strikers to score and they have fluffed it.
Not just the games we have lost but in those we have drew and won.
The stats generally show we dominate possession and yes have more shots than the opposition.
Yes those shots might be half chances.
However there has been decent chances over the season as well.
I disagree with you that a decent goalscorer would not be the answer.
It still wouldn't be perfect for me but it would get us in the top three.
A decent goalscorer plus a less defensive outlook at the right time would win us the league.
A more attacking outlook with these players may if we are lucky get us the play offs
(IMO)

I am saying a decent goalscorer would still be struggling unless they could score every time from long distances or could take loads of players on to score every time. The real issue is somebody to unlock defences to put the strikers through on goal.

It doesn't matter if we have more shots or not if all of ours are pot shots from 40 yards and 2 of theirs are shots from the penalty spot when they are clean through or have a good sight on goal after unlocking our defence.

We are in league 2, realistically a league 2 striker will need a couple of chances to equal a goal and won't score every chance they get. We haven't created decent chances for a couple of games at least.

dongonzalos · Oct 17, 2017

Nick said:
I am saying a decent goalscorer would still be struggling unless they could score every time from long distances or could take loads of players on to score every time. The real issue is somebody to unlock defences to put the strikers through on goal.

It doesn't matter if we have more shots or not if all of ours are pot shots from 40 yards and 2 of theirs are shots from the penalty spot when they are clean through or have a good sight on goal after unlocking our defence.

We are in league 2, realistically a league 2 striker will need a couple of chances to equal a goal and won't score every chance they get. We haven't created decent chances for a couple of games at least.

Think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
You think all of our shots are pot shots from distance.
I think that over the season we have created enough chances that are not just long distance. (I include when we are winning)
The edge of the area shots have increased recently because Jones and the Duck are relatively good at them.
However with the right striker dominating down the middle I think there would be less reliance on that.

Nick · Oct 17, 2017

dongonzalos said:
Think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
You think all of our shots are pot shots from distance.
I think that over the season we have created enough chances that are not just long distance. (I include when we are winning)
The edge of the area shots have increased recently because Jones and the Duck are relatively good at them.
However with the right striker dominating down the middle I think there would be less reliance on that.

Over the season we haven't created shed loads of chances bar a couple of games. They have been games where we have been winning and the other team is chasing a goal so they are going for it so it makes it easier.

Watch all the games back, players like Jones will have been guilty of being too greedy when they could have squared it or passed to a player in a better position to have an optimistic shot far more times than our strikers have missed sitters.

As soon as the other team park the bus, our decent chances vanish and we resort to long shots.

Adge · Oct 17, 2017

I think DKE was more than guilty when played in against Barnet. Had the whole of the goal to aim at and messed it from about 8 yards.

Nick · Oct 17, 2017

Adge said:
I think DKE was more than guilty when played in against Barnet. Had the whole of the goal to aim at and messed it from about 8 yards.

When you put it like that it sounds as if he is through on goal, one on one and he missed.

You don't mention the defender about 3 yards in front of him, the goalkeeper and the other defender who was blocking the other side of the goal. He could have done better with the shot yes, but it wasn't a "clear cut" chance.

Esoterica · Oct 17, 2017

Wouldn't say he had the whole goal to aim at with the position of the defenders but he really really should have done better. Gets his feet in a proper mess - I guess because he wants it on his right foot.

Londonccfcfan · Oct 17, 2017

Nick said:
What are the compelling stats?

A compelling stat would be how many proper chances are our strikers missing. I am talking clear cut one on one, just been put clean through chances that they are missing week in, week out?

You are using shot stats, like many others and thinking it is strikers missing good chances.

Disagree with here.

We have created lots of clear cut chances, just off the top of my head some glaring ones being...

McNulty two vs Chesterfield, one on one clean through.
And a header which was a sitter few yards out open goal.

Max Biamou vs Swindon away clear through one on one fluffed it.
Samme match match clear through tripped over shouId have penalty.

Both these situations game was goalless.

I think as mentioned before we should have had a few penalties at least, most worrying is the players when clean through woukd rather fall down look for a penalty than have confidence to try staying feet and shooting.

I can akso think of abput three vincenti free headers few yards put clear of marker and hes put it wide, ehen easier to score.

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