Another Gilbert tease. (1 Viewer)

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

RegTheDonk said:
if they can't pay now and have to re-finance at some point, when they are currently aruguably the best side in the country in their particular field, what hope have they for a bright future?

A point that often missed. They still have some way to go to meet their bond commitments but we are constantly told the Ricoh is performing far better than it ever has before so how much headroom is there for further improvement?

The building of the training centre has been delayed, the order for the 2 new scoreboards to be in place for this season was cancelled plus of course turning the screw on CCFC to pay more for everything.

If I was Wasps I'd be very worried about the prospect of a Birmingham City stadium at the NEC, that would pretty much remove any chance of future concerts at the Ricoh.

kmj5000 · Mar 20, 2017

chiefdave said:
Not really the same is it? It would be like buying a house for £250K and the bank giving you a £2m mortgage!

No it's not. In this case the "house" (the Ricoh) is worth more than the mortgage (the bonds)!

Nick · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
No it's not. In this case the "house" (the Ricoh) is worth more than the mortgage (the bonds)!

Is it?

Grendel · Mar 20, 2017

The Ricoh is worth nowhere the amount of the bond. It's a valuation based on future earnings

It's the leasehold value. Under the terms of acl goes into administration doesn't the lease transfer back to the reduced freehold?

It's nowhere near the bond value

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

Grendel said:
Under the terms of acl goes into administration doesn't the lease transfer back to the reduced freehold?

Its something odd like the extension falls away and they're back on the original lease.

italiahorse · Mar 20, 2017

Astute said:
I don't hate watching Wasps. I will never waste my money watching them.

Don't knock it until you've tried it !!!

kmj5000 · Mar 20, 2017

Nick said:
Is it?

Yes. Valued at £43.5m with bond at £34m.

kmj5000 · Mar 20, 2017

Grendel said:
The Ricoh is worth nowhere the amount of the bond. It's a valuation based on future earnings

It's the leasehold value. Under the terms of acl goes into administration doesn't the lease transfer back to the reduced freehold?

It's nowhere near the bond value

So you know better than a qualified independent valuer?

oldfiver · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
So you know better than a qualified independent valuer?

But they did not have a qualified independent valuer as promised for the last accounts

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
Yes. Valued at £43.5m with bond at £34m.

Do you believe a company whose major asset is worth £43.5m being sold for less than £7m represents good value for the taxpayer. How about a 200 year extension for £1m?
Its not like Wasps have form for getting themselves in trouble by overvaluing an asset and then borrowing money against it. Oh hang on, that's exactly what they did before and why they ended up at Wycombe in the first place.

kmj5000 · Mar 20, 2017

oldfiver said:
But they did not have a qualified independent valuer as promised for the last accounts

Income has increased since last independent valuation so layman's logic suggests that the value will not have fallen?

kmj5000 · Mar 20, 2017

chiefdave said:
Do you believe a company whose major asset is worth £43.5m being sold for less than £7m represents good value for the taxpayer. How about a 200 year extension for £1m?
Its not like Wasps have form for getting themselves in trouble by overvaluing an asset and then borrowing money against it. Oh hang on, that's exactly what they did before and why they ended up at Wycombe in the first place.

JR2 will give us the answer to your question.

Grendel · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
Income has increased since last independent valuation so layman's logic suggests that the value will not have fallen?

Why would it? If so why did they breach the agreement and not have an individual valuation?

Wasn't the valuation initially a projected valuation?

kmj5000 · Mar 20, 2017

Grendel said:
Why would it? If so why did they breach the agreement and not have an individual valuation?

Wasn't the valuation initially a projected valuation?

Whatever. It's still a market value given by a qualified independent valuer.

Grendel · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
Whatever. It's still a market value given by a qualified independent valuer.

Not really. A valuation isn't a sales value. Also it's valuation is only there as a fall back on the bond. If wasps are unable to meet bond commitments - they are already refinancing and in reality have paid nothing yet - and they fell into administration the leasehold goes back to 40 years and the valuation plummets.

Anyway whose going to offer that sort of money for an assett which has 95% of its "value" tied up in debt.

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
Whatever. It's still a market value given by a qualified independent valuer.

If these valuations are so water tight how come Wasps got into so much trouble before borrowing against a stadium valuation that proved to be massively inflated?

SkyBlue_Bear83 · Mar 20, 2017

RegTheDonk said:
Don't understand the finances one bit...but if they can't pay now and have to re-finance at some point, when they are currently aruguably the best side in the country in their particular field, what hope have they for a bright future? Surely in stature and standing, the amount of people supporting them and buying their merchandise, it can't get much better than it currently is?

They have no hope of paying it off, they will just keep borrowing to pay it off and the borrow again to pay off the next one.

torchomatic · Mar 20, 2017

I am going to defend the CT for once. There's a very interesting article on the website. "Five things we've learnt from the MK Dons defeat..." I like the new angle. Way to go, CT.

Grendel · Mar 20, 2017

SkyBlue_Bear83 said:
They have no hope of paying it off, they will just keep borrowing to pay it off and the borrow again to pay off the next one.

Which is really what fucks me off as it's exactly what some wankers on here said sisu would do and the council should at all costs protect a community asset.

It's disgusting.

Terry Gibson's perm · Mar 20, 2017

Grendel said:
Which is really what fucks me off as it's exactly what some wankers on here said sisu would do and the council should at all costs protect a community asset.

It's disgusting.

It probably is what they would have done and the council should have included clauses to stop anybody doing it but they were so in love with their new toy.

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

SkyBlue_Bear83 said:
They have no hope of paying it off, they will just keep borrowing to pay it off and the borrow again to pay off the next one.

Problem is if they hit any problems and have trouble refinancing they're screwed. Its easy to assume things will always be as they are now, we did that and look at the mess it got us in.

What happens if the economy goes tits up, TV rights are less than expected, they can't get a sponsor etc. Its like taking out another credit card to pay off your old one. At some point you'll apply for a new one and get told no and then you're in a mess. They need to be paying down the capital.

wingy · Mar 20, 2017

Terry Gibson's perm said:
It probably is what they would have done and the council should have included clauses to stop anybody doing it but they were so in love with their new toy.

Grendel said:
Which is really what fucks me off as it's exactly what some wankers on here said sisu would do and the council should at all costs protect a community asset.

It's disgusting.

Can't really argue with that,and I don't know If I ever expressed that point.
Though I believe I didn't, my standpoint started before all of that.
All I've ever wanted is them gone!

Skybluesince82 · Mar 20, 2017

This isn't news as such, people knew all of this anyway, but now it's semi-official. Typical Gilbert dangling something in front of fans to get clicks and people talking about him, but at least he/ CT have finally asked some questions of London wasps instead of the oh so cozy love in that they have enjoyed so far.

Grendel was spot on (and you don't hear that often...), the council must be worrying a little now as they couldn't do enough to get wasps in the city - Now there are lots of cracks showing in a number of different areas between ccc and London wasps and all is not rosy.

Their finances being scrutinised must make uncomfortable reading for ccc with a delayed training building, stadium refurbishments postponed and now difficulty paying bonds back. It's just a shame that the likes of Lucas, Mutton etc are no longer around to answer questions and are no longer accountable for decisions that have been made - but that's the grubby world of politics for you.

The only bad news about this, is that it is likely to mean sisu hang around playing the long game waiting to see how it pans out.

Astute · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
Income has increased since last independent valuation so layman's logic suggests that the value will not have fallen?

The value of something which is supposed to make money is dependent on how much money it makes. It is making a loss still and not the profit that the valuation was made from. So how many years will it be valued on potential and not the loss it is making so far?

Astute · Mar 20, 2017

Grendel said:
Which is really what fucks me off as it's exactly what some wankers on here said sisu would do and the council should at all costs protect a community asset.

It's disgusting.

So I am a wanker for not wanting SISU to get the arena and load debt against it that would have been unsustainable. Just like Wasps have done. It isn't as though I wanted someone else like Wasps to come in and do the same. But now it is Wasps that have to pay a lot of money each year just to tread water.

Anyone with a working brain cell would have wanted CCC to keep it until we had trustworthy owners. But you would prefer to insult people to wanting what is best for our football club.

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

Another Gilbert exclusive tomorrow. He's going to be revealing what colour grass is.

Astute · Mar 20, 2017

chiefdave said:
Another Gilbert exclusive tomorrow. He's going to be revealing what colour grass is.

Would prefer to know how potent it is.

hutch1972 · Mar 20, 2017

chiefdave said:
Its something odd like the extension falls away and they're back on the original lease.

And the council would hold the cards again.

hutch1972 · Mar 20, 2017

Astute said:
So I am a wanker for not wanting SISU to get the arena and load debt against it that would have been unsustainable. Just like Wasps have done. It isn't as though I wanted someone else like Wasps to come in and do the same. But now it is Wasps that have to pay a lot of money each year just to tread water.

Anyone with a working brain cell would have wanted CCC to keep it until we had trustworthy owners. But you would prefer to insult people to wanting what is best for our football club.

He is not disagreeing with you ,nobody would have wanted either party to load it with debt , the point is that people who now watch wasps seem to be comfortable as to what they have done.
Remember , the council used this very scenario as one reason not to sell to sisu.

hutch1972 · Mar 20, 2017

Skybluesince82 said:
This isn't news as such, people knew all of this anyway, but now it's semi-official. Typical Gilbert dangling something in front of fans to get clicks and people talking about him, but at least he/ CT have finally asked some questions of London wasps instead of the oh so cozy love in that they have enjoyed so far.

Grendel was spot on (and you don't hear that often...), the council must be worrying a little now as they couldn't do enough to get wasps in the city - Now there are lots of cracks showing in a number of different areas between ccc and London wasps and all is not rosy.

Their finances being scrutinised must make uncomfortable reading for ccc with a delayed training building, stadium refurbishments postponed and now difficulty paying bonds back. It's just a shame that the likes of Lucas, Mutton etc are no longer around to answer questions and are no longer accountable for decisions that have been made - but that's the grubby world of politics for you.

The only bad news about this, is that it is likely to mean sisu hang around playing the long game waiting to see how it pans out.

I seem to remember one councillor saying for the sake of his reputation it had to work.

chiefdave · Mar 20, 2017

hutch1972 said:
And the council would hold the cards again.

To be honest I'm amazed the council did any deal where they don't take back total control in the case of an insolvency event.

hutch1972 · Mar 20, 2017

chiefdave said:
To be honest I'm amazed the council did any deal where they don't take back total control in the case of an insolvency event.

I think it reverts straight back to them, after all they actually own it.

oldfiver · Mar 20, 2017

kmj5000 said:
Income has increased since last independent valuation so layman's logic suggests that the value will not have fallen?

It depends what figure was used in the first assumption

singers_pore · Mar 21, 2017

kmj5000 said:
So you know better than a qualified independent valuer?

I think we all know better. You can hardly call a valuation independent when the firm doing the valuation was paid by Wasps. An obvious conflict of interest. And a massive overvaluation which a 5 year old should be able to see through. I explained all of this more than a year ago. Wasps' finances have proved me right. The Wasps bond is down 5% already and I think it will go down another 40%.

singers_pore · Mar 21, 2017

The amazing story here is that an incompetent council has managed to screw TWO hedge funds. Maybe they are not so incompetent after all.

Another Gilbert tease. (1 Viewer)

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