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Administration or Liquidation (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter ashbyjan
  • Start date Mar 3, 2013
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ashbyjan

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #1
Just thought I would do a bit of digging as to the differences etc as oracle Linnell was so desperate to convince people that it would be liquidation and not administration.

If a firm goes under Administraion it continues trading, usually in the hope of selling it as a going concern but running is done by administrator not the original owners. If it goes into Liquidation, they are calling quits and shutting up shop and selling anything saleable off to pay creditors first, then, hopefully if there is anything left over, pay the share holders something back as well.

Guess for CCFC it means would SISU get more from selling of the assets - Ryton and some balls under liquidation as all players registrations would automatically revert to Football League. Also under Football Creditor rules football creditors would have to be paid first so if there are any ex-managers or transfer fees outstanding these would come first. There would also be ACL to pay off etc although SISU through the ARVO debenture would claim first refusal I believe. Back of an envelope calculation I cannot see this being worth more than a £1m to SISU. A Compnay can go into liquidation in 2 ways - either put itself in or a creditor can force it in.

If a Company cannot pay its debts when they fall due, any creditor can issue a winding up petition through the courts, which, if successful, will put the company into liquidation.

The Directors of a Compnay in liquidation are investigated to make sure they haven't acted illegally- ie traded knowingly insolvent, filed accounts late etc

If a Company goes into liquidation, the liquidators (specialised accountants) have to sell the assets to pay off the debts - usually there are insufficient assets in the company to do this so some owed money will lose out.

Alternatively, another Company can buy the company as a going concern (and its assets), but would leave the debts behind - again, whether or not those people owed money would get it depends on how much the company and its assets were sold for.

It is technically possible for a Director to set up a new company to buy the old but there are very strict rules governing this so it is unlikely they could do it just as a way of avoiding having to pay debts

A firm under Administration usually has some prospect of being sold intact as a still operating entity. It can be bought by another company who may inject new money into it, probably put their own management in, and hope to get it up and running properly again. So back of envelope accountancy if someone was to offer more than a million to SISU they would be better off.

Very simplistic analysis and I would ask OSB or Brighton to correct and/or expand.
 
N

Nunskyblue

New Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #2
Linnell harps on about it only being liquidation because as he states the club own very little, lets go with the circa £1m figure. Where he gets his knickers in a twist is that whereas the council / ACL are pretty much refusing to do business with SISU thus creating a club of little worth I do firmly believe that they (council / ACL) would do business with the right people. You have a business worth investing in. Now whether that investor is out there is another matter but ccfc, with a firm agreement to purchase the arena (part or whole) has got to be an attractive prospect.
 
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ampthill_sba

New Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #3
The problem (and why I think it's all posturing and we'll never go into admin or liquidate) is that SHITSU have an accountability to its investors and are only interested in a long term gain. They can't afford not to get back their £45m so are willing to take loads of crap and flack to eventually build the club back up with additional revenue strands to a profitable club...regardless of whether it takes 2 years or 10 more. SHITSU are a wealthy business it's other 'arms' are doing well I believe.

ACL and the council also know that they can't survive (acl) or can't continue to get votes (councillors) if our club goes to the wall.

Prediction; SHITSU will eventually get everything they want...we'll eventually ace L1...maybe not next season though and when we do we'll do a Southampton. Then SHITSU will take out their owed monies and then....
 
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rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #4
Liquidation or administration ? Been asking this question for a while, that smug know all prat Linnell trots the same we are doomed scenerio should sisu liquidate us. We know there is life after administration and -10 points would be a a small price to pay IMO. It looks like there can be life after liquidation, the worry is at what level and what guise. Our hope is others in a position to get involved are waiting for the cards to collapse we know the names involved previously and i'm hopeful there are some are still around, with a plan or something because love 'em or hate 'em without them we look stuffed.
 
Last edited: Mar 3, 2013
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ampthill_sba

New Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #5
Admin with -10 points might get rid of SHITSU but won't gain any revenue for whoever buys us.

Admin isn't the solution...ACL must agree to give CCFC a huge proportion of match day revenue.
 
R

rupert_bear

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #6
ampthill_sba said:
Admin with -10 points might get rid of SHITSU but won't gain any revenue for whoever buys us.

Admin isn't the solution...ACL must agree to give CCFC a huge proportion of match day revenue.
Click to expand...
But in reality how much is that ? A bit of catering by a sub contract firm, what else is there. Not sure what ACLs commitments are as landlord but i assume stadium security is theirs or does paying rent give them a share of other money streams like the casino or concerts or ehibitions
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #7
The most valuable asset must be the registration with the league so it wouldn't make sense for liquidation.
I know that admin comes with a 10point penalty.
But if we are liquidated wouldn't they lose this asset?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #8
sky blue john said:
The most valuable asset must be the registration with the league so it wouldn't make sense for liquidation.
I know that admin comes with a 10point penalty.
But if we are liquidated wouldn't they lose this asset?
Click to expand...

They will liquidate no question. They will not want to appoint costly administrators. So no more club. Happy now!
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #9
Grendel said:
They will liquidate no question. They will not want to appoint costly administrators. So no more club. Happy now!
Click to expand...

So if the league registration is worth 5million if they go into admin but becomes worthless in the liquidation scenario which would you do ?
 
G

Godiva

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #10
sky blue john said:
So if the league registration is worth 5million if they go into admin but becomes worthless in the liquidation scenario which would you do ?
Click to expand...

League registration is only worth anything if there is a buyer.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #11
sky blue john said:
So if the league registration is worth 5million if they go into admin but becomes worthless in the liquidation scenario which would you do ?
Click to expand...

It's worthless as there is no immediate buyer.
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #12
Godiva said:
League registration is only worth anything if there is a buyer.
Click to expand...

Id be very surprised if there wasn't !!!
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #13
Grendel said:
It's worthless as there is no immediate buyer.
Click to expand...

We will see !!!
If there are any interested parties obviously they are not going to make themselves known yet. They will just sit tight and wait !!!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #14
sky blue john said:
We will see !!!
If there are any interested parties obviously they are not going to make themselves known yet. They will just sit tight and wait !!!
Click to expand...

Why has no one purchased Birmingham which has been for sale for nearly a year?
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #15
Grendel said:
Why has no one purchased Birmingham which has been for sale for nearly a year?
Click to expand...

Debt !!!!!!
Its not rocket science !!!!
 

DazzleTommyDazzle

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #16
Grendel said:
Why has no one purchased Birmingham which has been for sale for nearly a year?
Click to expand...

So just to understand your logic, if B'ham has been for sale for a year and has not been bought, are you saying that no football club will ever be purchased again? Or is it that no football club outside the Premiership will ever be purchased again? Or perhaps no midlands club will ever be purchased again?
 
S

SkyBlueBlood

Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #17
Admin is only an option if they have a potential buyer who is willing to pay them back some of their investment as there is not a lot else left for the administrator to turn into cash.
 

DazzleTommyDazzle

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #18
SkyBlueBlood said:
Admin is only an option if they have a potential buyer who is willing to pay them back some of their investment as there is not a lot else left for the administrator to turn into cash.
Click to expand...

Sorry, this isn't the way it works.

Sometimes there's a buyer in the wings, but often the key job for the administrator is to find and negotiate with potential purchasers.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #19
DazzleTommyDazzle said:
So just to understand your logic, if B'ham has been for sale for a year and has not been bought, are you saying that no football club will ever be purchased again? Or is it that no football club outside the Premiership will ever be purchased again? Or perhaps no midlands club will ever be purchased again?
Click to expand...

No but we have the worst rental arrangement in the football league have lost money for the last 20 years do not have any significant fixed assets and a trail of debt. Is that a company that will attract immediate interest in your view.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #20
sky blue john said:
Debt !!!!!!
Its not rocket science !!!!
Click to expand...

Oh so we have 40 million debt and no fixed assets. We only make any money from the ground 25 times a year.

I know your not the brightest but surely even you can see the appeal is not exactly obvious.
 
A

Ashdown1

New Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #21
You would hope our hedge fund friends with all of their 'International' contacts are looking high and low for that elusive buyer !
 

DazzleTommyDazzle

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #22
Grendel said:
No but we have the worst rental arrangement in the football league have lost money for the last 20 years do not have any significant fixed assets and a trail of debt. Is that a company that will attract immediate interest in your view.
Click to expand...

In my view, the most likely positive future for the club would come from administration, followed by purchase by a buyer who was in a position to do a simultaneous deal with the council/Higgs/ACL.

I say administration because I think it's unlikely that anyone will be able to do a workable deal with SISU - but I'd like to be wrong.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #23
The only reason sisu would liquidate rather than administration would be spite (unlikely in my view). The fact is administration would provide the best chance to maximise realisations and get sisu some of their money back. I appreciate the assets are few and far between, however, there are some. League registration, player registrations, option to buy Higgs half share are probably the main ones.

Again in my view there doesn't appear to be any value in sisu putting the club into any insolvency process as they are owed a lion share of the money. They would get out of the acl arrears, but would still have to negotiate a new lease so would encounter the same issues as they have now. Unless there are substantial external creditors the only reason sisu would choose insolvency would be if they really had just run out of cash...possible
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #24
Grendel said:
Oh so we have 40 million debt and no fixed assets. We only make any money from the ground 25 times a year.

I know your not the brightest but surely even you can see the appeal is not exactly obvious.
Click to expand...

Whats not very bright is asking a question why has birmingham not sold in a year to which i replied and then you turn my reply back round to coventrys situation. Make up your mind !!!!
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #25
Exactly how i see it Steve !!!
Grendel and co like to be dramatic saying it will be the end of the club because it suits their agenda !!!!
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #26
Grendel said:
Oh so we have 40 million debt and no fixed assets. We only make any money from the ground 25 times a year.

I know your not the brightest but surely even you can see the appeal is not exactly obvious.
Click to expand...

The difference is the owners of birmingham will want a certain amount for the club, which im guessing they havent been offered yet. If city went into administration the club/assets would go to the highest offeror.

If there was nobody willing to buy the club, we would end up in liquidation
 
S

Stafford_SkBlue

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #27
Liquidation would mean the end of the club, as it would stop trading, leaving the league and the current season results removed from the league table. (I think)

Football clubs go into administration, most come out of it, two that did not are Rushton and Diamonds and Chester City.

Look at Portsmouth, somehow survived the horror so far, although not out of it.
 

coundonskyblue

New Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #28
The fact that Portsmouth are still in with a chance of survival shows how resilient football clubs are to liquidation.

Portsmouth's problems far outweigh ours, yet they are still in with a chance of survival.
 

Sky Blue Kid

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #29
AshbyJan says....It is technically possible for a Director to set up a new company to buy the old but there are very strict rules governing this so it is unlikely they could do it just as a way of avoiding having to pay debts



Will probably be corrected here, but isn't that called.."Phoenix-ing" which is illegal?
 

Sky Blue Kid

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #30
Grendel said:
They will liquidate no question. They will not want to appoint costly administrators. So no more club. Happy now!
Click to expand...





Why is that then Grenduffy?...Could it be they don't want certain finances being investigated?...Cayman Island account for instance?
Liquidation, as I see it, will lose them everything, Administration however gives them a chance to recoup some money, but will they take that chance?:facepalm:
 

Sky Blue Kid

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #31
Grendel said:
Oh so we have 40 million debt and no fixed assets. We only make any money from the ground 25 times a year.

I know your not the brightest but surely even you can see the appeal is not exactly obvious.
Click to expand...



And you're not a patronising arsehole are you!:jerkit:
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #32
DazzleTommyDazzle said:
In my view, the most likely positive future for the club would come from administration, followed by purchase by a buyer who was in a position to do a simultaneous deal with the council/Higgs/ACL.

I say administration because I think it's unlikely that anyone will be able to do a workable deal with SISU - but I'd like to be wrong.
Click to expand...

Perfect understanding of the situation obviously in my opinion
 

lordsummerisle

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #33
Sky Blue Kid said:
Why is that then Grenduffy?...Could it be they don't want certain finances being investigated?...Cayman Island account for instance?
Liquidation, as I see it, will lose them everything, Administration however gives them a chance to recoup some money, but will they take that chance?:facepalm:
Click to expand...
What is your obsession with this Cayman Island account??

I know that Ranson's company that he claimed to have nothing to do with, that loaned money to Cardiff for player whilst he was Chairman of a competitor club was based in the Cayman's though?

Liquidation as you see it won't lose them any money at all, nor would administration, because as you see it they've waltzed off to the Cayman's with millions of CCFC assets.
 

Baginton

New Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #34
AFC Coventry, groundshare @ Butts arena, playing in the EvoStick southern premier anyone?

I'd go and would voluteer my services and time.

#getourclubback #fuckthelotofthem

MOD£RN FOOTBALL SUCKS !!
 

Sky Blue Pete

Well-Known Member
  • Mar 3, 2013
  • #35
I thought it was Arvo ltd that was registered in Cayman Islands with the assets? More hopeful than I have been for a long time after conversation yesterday with a friend from CCC. Won't be easy but sisu know they are backed in a corner and while I personally think they have been no better or worse in their financial support of our club, I think sisu know they have no chance of dealing with acl or CCC for more of the Ricoh. The hope comes from the thought that other companies/investors will be interested for the same reasons sisu were/are and CCC/acl will deal with them as they will trust them
 
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