These aren't 150 year old statues though, most were put up in the 20s as a reaction against black people's rights and were part of a wave of racism that created segregation and a massive rise in KKK membership. Some of them went up in the 1980s ffs. I'm not arguing that they should be destroyed and history wiped clean but they should be put into a museum where they can be viewed in context as part of the period the came from, including the civil war, Jim Crow and the civil rights movement. They shouldn't be, literally, put on a pedestal to be admired without context.
Robert E. Lee is an interesting character too, I've read a decent bit about him and he wasn't particularly pro slavery and even considered fighting the war on the side of the union but ended up going with the confederacy because his home state of Virginia did and he, above all else, saw himself as a Virginian. The US national cemetery at Arlington was built on his estate. People are getting upset about the removal of statues of Nathan Bedford Forest though, a general who in the civil war refused to take black prisoners and so executed any that surrendered. How can you legitimately have a statue of this man standing proud in any city in the modern world.
It's not members of the public though is it, it's elected town councils deciding they don't want to be represented by these men any more.I'm not disputing if these people are 'good' or 'bad', I am just saying that members of the public should not be going around taking down statues because they don't agree with them.
You know, Jimmy Hill got rid of the salary cap, let's rip his down. Where does it stop?
It's just a bunch of spoiled babies who think they are above everyone else.
as usual you're wrong, I don't think they're a bunch of angels, I'm just realistic enough to know that they can't be if they're going to go up against a bunch of right wing fanatics armed to the teeth - but you keep telling yourself both sides are as bad.
It's not members of the public though is it, it's elected town councils deciding they don't want to be represented by these men any more.
Then why are you backing them all the time? Why are you acting oblivious to the wave of violence and chaos they have unleashed since Trump was elected, and largely towards innocent people?
The thing you don't get is that maybe once upon a time the Nazi's were a threat, but now they are basically nothing, apart from this whipped up frenzy from Charlottesville that has been in the news consistently since it happened, bypassing numerous terrorist atrocities and other far left violent incidents that have taken place in the meantime.
Your modern day Nazi presents a lot less risk to the public than your modern day Antifa warrior. Even if the viewpoints of the former are disgraceful. Thankfully, due to the horrific incidents of WW2, Nazism will never, ever prosper again. Due to those times though, any moment that it rears its head (like it did in Charlottesville) in the slightest capacity, people lose their minds and start hitting the panic button.
I'm not disputing if these people are 'good' or 'bad', I am just saying that members of the public should not be going around taking down statues because they don't agree with them.
You know, Jimmy Hill got rid of the salary cap, let's rip his down. Where does it stop?
It's just a bunch of spoiled babies who think they are above everyone else.
you talk utter nonsense.
As I said i another post, you are 3 times more likely to be the victim of a hate crime in the USA if you are black than if you're white. Strange that since there's been a wave of violence and chaos unleashed against trumps supporters since his election.
Who do you think are carrying out those attacks on black Americans?
You're an apologist for these white supremacists, I'm not sure if the fact you don't seem to realise it makes that worse or not.
Could you also let me know what left wing terrorist atrocities you are referring to?
your comparing the salary cap to putting people into slavery - fucks sake!!
The only reason you're so angry is because the argument is so rational, and you've completely lost it.
On the subject of Nazis, has anybody ever noticed those gold swastica type patterns above front doors?
The swastika itself is not the problem- see the grave of the bishop in the old cathedral. The bishop is wearing a robe ordained with swastikas. Hitler took the symbol and turned it round. It is the use of the reversed swastika by the people using it to symbolize an anti Semitic racist movement that is the problem. It was used as the flag of the NSDAP and later adopted as the national flag of Germany after the Nazis had taken power.
Any attempt to build a movement using this symbol should be nipped in the bud, not put in the same category as other people protesting it's use.
Pretty sure it started out in Indian culture, possibly religious, a benign symbol, with positive connotations.The swastika itself is not the problem- see the grave of the bishop in the old cathedral. The bishop is wearing a robe ordained with swastikas. Hitler took the symbol and turned it round. It is the use of the reversed swastika by the people using it to symbolize an anti Semitic racist movement that is the problem. It was used as the flag of the NSDAP and later adopted as the national flag of Germany after the Nazis had taken power.
Any attempt to build a movement using this symbol should be nipped in the bud, not put in the same category as other people protesting it's use.
Pretty sure it started out in Indian culture, possibly religious, a benign symbol, with positive connotations.
im not angry. youre wrong again.
i think the protestors in charlottwsville were right to stand up to white supremacists you dont.
im not comfortable with white supremacists marching down the srreet armed to the teeth yiu are.
i dont agree with your position.
The statue is not the real problem. Just a convenient excuse. They, the Nazis, were there to make a show of force and encourage others to come out and express their nazi opinions. Nazism is the contrary to free speech and tolerance. Trump should have slammed into them... but he put them on an equal footing with the people protesting Nazism by claiming many sides were at fault. The Nazis are now emboldened. There will be more of them and more violence and hate against minorities. Trump is a buffoon and is not fit to lead a country. No amount of deflection to the Antifa - which is not what the demonstration of force was about - will make Trump into a sane, intelligent leader of a democratic country. So Earlsdon is wasting his time.
Martcov - in my last post I literally said Trump is not fit to be in office. You are another one that has lost the argument so just resort to making things up along with Clint who thinks I back white supremacy. Here is a list of things I am, and am not comfortable with so you can try and understand a little bit more:
Comfortable:
- People to love their country, or have conservative, left or right wing views.
- People to vote for and support Trump, if they want to.
- People to draw issue with different religions.
- People to draw issues with racists.
Not comfortable:
- White supremacists or Nazis.
- White supremacists or Nazis going on armed marches.
- 'Reistance' groups such as Antifa and BLM going on armed marches.
- 'Reistance' groups such as Antifa and BLM going around causing violence and rioting (before Charlottesville which was all ignored).
- The media giving a free pass to the above.
- The crackdown on freedom of speech.
- Calling anyone racist that has conservative views.
Martcov - in my last post I literally said Trump is not fit to be in office. You are another one that has lost the argument so just resort to making things up along with Clint who thinks I back white supremacy. Here is a list of things I am, and am not comfortable with so you can try and understand a little bit more:
Comfortable:
- People to love their country, or have conservative, left or right wing views.
- People to vote for and support Trump, if they want to.
- People to draw issue with different religions.
- People to draw issues with racists.
Not comfortable:
- White supremacists or Nazis.
- White supremacists or Nazis going on armed marches.
- 'Reistance' groups such as Antifa and BLM going on armed marches.
- 'Reistance' groups such as Antifa and BLM going around causing violence and rioting (before Charlottesville which was all ignored).
- The media giving a free pass to the above.
- The crackdown on freedom of speech.
- Calling anyone racist that has conservative views.
you're not comfortable on Nazis going on armed marches but you're not comfortable with people resisting them?
Can you show me an example of anti facists movements openly carrying guns on a march? While you're there could you give me the examples of left wing terrorism in the USA that I asked for in a previous post?
Just to remind you, Mitt Romney agrees with me on this and not you - you've positioned yourself to the right of Mitt Romney!!
Which argument have I lost? Trump was wrong to seek to spread the blame out. It was a Nazi demonstration which resulted in beatings and a death caused by a Nazi supporter. Such demonstrations have no place in a democracy and should be unequivocally condemned- especially when they result in death.
You are not comfortable with people protesting Nazi demonstrations because you see it as a crack down on free speech?
Protesting Nazis is a necessity because they would immediately stifle free speech if they ever got to power. Surprised you are not more concerned with slamming Nazis than pointing out the failings of a portion of the protesters...
you're not comfortable on Nazis going on armed marches but you're not comfortable with people resisting them?
Can you show me an example of anti facists movements openly carrying guns on a march? While you're there could you give me the examples of left wing terrorism in the USA that I asked for in a previous post?
Just to remind you, Mitt Romney agrees with me on this and not you - you've positioned yourself to the right of Mitt Romney!!
It isn't hard, just go the internet and have a look on YouTube or twitter and you will see lots of left wing antifa protestors attacking people with weapons, in body armour, just because they voted for trump or have conservative views. In their view if you don't agree with what they say you are a Nazi, white suppremist, bigot. In fact you don't have to even have these views I have seen a couple of videos where a person on there own has been group attacked as they just decided he was a trump supporter or a undercover cop. The yanks are losing the plot, you cant condone violence on either side, which is what people and the media are doing, you don't take things into your own hands. If idiots want to spout racist shite, let them, take photos/videos and show them up for what they are. Having a lefty vigilante group who think they can take law and order into their own hands is wrong and they should be condemned.
protesting Nazi's do really think there are that many people who actually care what they have to say. 99.99% of the American population think they are idiots, they will have no power, they would never get the vote to have any power, its a stupid minority. They have been given time by people and the media, show them for what they are racist and move on.
protesting Nazi's do you really think there are that many people who actually care what they have to say. 99.99% of the American population think they are idiots, they will have no power, they would never get the vote to have any power, its a stupid minority. They have been given time by people and the media, show them for what they are racists and move on.
Once again, I have to repeat myself whilst you try to mud the waters. I have no issue in people challenging the Nazi march, I have issue with the countless incidents previous where these 'resistance' groups have been rioting and causing violent attacks on innocent people, something you are oblivious and ignorant towards.
This is what people such as yourself don't understand. Everyone has condemned the Nazi march, it is like the Slade/Mowbray argument. Everyone unanimously knows the former is shit, but it is the latter that gets excused constantly.
I said terrorist atrocities, as I listed it was something as well as far left violence, the former mainly being attributed to Islam. If you want a few examples of your mates kicking off, see below:
- young white, mentally ill male kidnapped, beaten, tortured, forced to drink toilet water, and threatened with death, as his kidnappers scream about Trump and repeatedly insist that he denounce Trump and white people; his kidnappers livestreamed their racist hate crime on Facebook as if it was perfectly natural -- 4 in custody after mentally disabled man tied up, tortured on Facebook Live
- 69 year old woman left with bloody head wound after 27 year old man brutally beats her with a chair for supporting Trump, tolerant leftist charged with attempted homicide -- Election argument ends with assault, Donora police say
- 15 year-old punched and kicked by several classmates for wearing MAGA hat, punched, thrown to the ground and kicked, charges filed -- Student attacked for wearing 'Make America Great Again' hat at anti-Trump protest
- man beaten by multiple assailants for voting Trump as they taunt him --
(his description: ) - hispanic man chased and beaten by a mob for wearing MAGA hat --
- 11 year old elementary student beaten by classmates, left in crutches, for voting Trump in mock election --
- Trump supporter shot during political argument -- Paul Jones, Trump supporter, shot at Cleveland bar during heated political debate
- female in high school being beaten by another student for posting pro-Trump Instagram comment, as classmates cheer -- YouTube
- British national tries to assassinate Donald Trump, tries to steal gun from Las Vegas police officer at Trump rally -- Man who attempted to grab gun at rally wanted 'to kill Trump' - CNNPolitics
- bloody violence against Trump supporters outside San Jose rally -- Ugly, bloody scenes in San Jose as protesters attack Trump supporters outside rally
- teen chased by mob, tackled, hit multiple times for supporting Trump at a rally; two arrested. -- Father speaks out after young son targeted by anti-Trump mob
- man sucker punched, knocked to ground for supporting Trump at a rally -- YouTube
- man struck with object from behind ends up bleeding, for supporting Trump at a rally -- Trump supporter attacked in San Jose, left bleeding.
- [ Not sure if this is all San Jose, but appears to document multiple individual assaults. -- Hypocritical Anti-Trump Protesters Are Attacking People Everywhere ]
- anti-police rioters kicking a homeless man for being white near anti-police riot, all cheer -- Black Lives Matter Kick Homeless Man For Being White! Charlotte North Carolina Riot Attack Homeless!
- anti-police protestors beat reporter unconscious, then try to drag him into a fire, because they're mad -- Charlotte North Carolina Protesters Attempts to throw Journalist INTO FIRE Keith Lamont Scott
- man left bloody for attending a Trump rally, rocks thrown at cars, etc, in Costa Mesa. 17 arrests from the riot. -- Trump Supporter Beaten Bloody By Protesters
- two men beat Trump supporter for holding sign, police intervene to save him -- Meriden officer stops assault on man with Trump sign; 2 arrested
- 62 year old man beaten with crowbar for wearing Trump shirt, in front of witnesses -- Man's Trump T-shirt sparked crowbar attack, cops say
- mob of anti-police rioters attacking a young white man, cheering as they beat, drag and strip him -- Charlotte Protests "RIOTS" Innocent White Guy Attacked
- high school student beaten into critical condition for posting BlueLivesMatter on Facebook. Police arrest four men who previously attended his High School -- Sylacauga police arrest 4 in connection with student beating
- young woman beaten with clubs as she's trapped against a barricade -- Antifa beating innocent men and women with clubs and sticks while they are trapped at a barricade
Why are you defending and excusing this?
Which argument have I lost? Trump was wrong to seek to spread the blame out. It was a Nazi demonstration which resulted in beatings and a death caused by a Nazi supporter. Such demonstrations have no place in a democracy and should be unequivocally condemned- especially when they result in death.
You are not comfortable with people protesting Nazi demonstrations because you see it as a crack down on free speech?
Protesting Nazis is a necessity because they would immediately stifle free speech if they ever got to power. Surprised you are not more concerned with slamming Nazis than pointing out the failings of a portion of the protesters...
You are utterly clueless, and your mates at Antifa are doing a much better job of stifiling free speech than the modern day Nazi ever will. The Nazi's will never rise again thankfully, sadly though, we have a new form. Antifa and co...
And same for the left wing hate groups as been mentioned. They are both crazy groups and dangerous groups. Luckily they will never get anywhere near power so why do we both talking about them?
It's in the media because trump won the the election and the media hate him in the main. They have to blame and focus on something and this fits the bill perfectly. Trump is no saint but he was elected fairly and democratically. The same people who don't understand why he won are the same people who don't understand why brexit won. People want change
not seen any videos of a mob openly carrying guns or having a car driven at them. Not condoning attacks but trying to put the two things on a par just doesn't work for me.
And one is a symptom of the other, the rhetoric used by trump has emboldened the far right and lead to an increase in hate crime, that is the opinion of the head of the Association of Chief of police officers in the US.
the bit in bold isn't true, you've tried the both as bad as each other defence repeatedly, it doesn't work.
As I stated in my previous post, the Head of the association of Chief Police officers in the States puts the rise in hate crime firmly at trumps door for the rhetoric he's used and I agree with him. Of course people are going to hit back.
I haven't condoned these incidents you've listed, again you're making it up. I've condoned aggressive resistance to a march by armed far right white supremacists.
And as for listing hate crimes against white people in your list, they are disgusting hate crimes but they have not increased as crimes against minorities have in the US since trumps election, I keep asking you why that is but you won't answer.
you can't help but fight their corner can you?!
And same for the left wing hate groups as been mentioned. They are both crazy groups and dangerous groups. Luckily they will never get anywhere near power so why do we both talking about them?
It's in the media because trump won the the election and the media hate him in the main. They have to blame and focus on something and this fits the bill perfectly. Trump is no saint but he was elected fairly and democratically. The same people who don't understand why he won are the same people who don't understand why brexit won. People want change
They have been encouraged by Breitbart. They have been emboldened by Trump. They are in the news because of a torchlight rally which resulted in a death. All publicity is good publicity as far as they are concerned. If Trump had condemned them without mentioning 'many sides' and claiming that the protesters were just as bad, we could have moved on. That's the point.
You are utterly clueless, and your mates at Antifa are doing a much better job of stifiling free speech than the modern day Nazi ever will. The Nazi's will never rise again thankfully, sadly though, we have a new form. Antifa and co...
So when a BLM member who was ex miltary said he hated white people and went on to shoot and kill 5 police officer is that ok by you. this also happened way before trump was elected was this down to his rhetoric?
He wasn't elected fairly- he had help from Putin - and he didn't win the popular vote. Hillary won the popular vote by more votes than your democratic Brexit vote. So get over it.
Whether the media hates Trumo or not, he is proving to be incapable of being a president. The criticism comes from all sides including his own party. The guy is a clown, but you see him as a victim because your hero Farage praises him.
As for people wanting change, I don't think Trump is the change they thought they were getting. As with Brexit they have been had and are now coming to realize it.
totally agree, the media said trump was wrong for not condemning the violence in Charlottesville on the Saturday, Sunday he condemns all right wing, Nazis etc. media then say its too late, on the Monday he condemns both sides for violence then the media goes into melt down for condemning a violent left movement. Lets be fair trump is a dick but the left and media hate him so much they literally jump on anything and spin it to fit a narrative.
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