A positive thread (2 Viewers)

MichaelCCFC · Jan 7, 2015

'The Swansea Way'. http://www.theswanseaway.co.uk/2015/01/keith-haynes-swanseas-value-more-than.html#.VKz4MiusWVN

An interesting read. And remember, the Swansea revival started not with a new rich owner, not by sticking with a failed ownership model and not by a new consortium magically appearing with every i dotted and t crossed - it happened because a group of fans took the initiative, gave it a go and look where they are now. Any suggestions for what a Coventry Way might look like and what the first step is to make it happen?

skybluebeduff · Jan 7, 2015

£££ I imagine, it's needed in today's football world.

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

A group of fans with money and the support of a forward thinking council.

We currently have 0/2

chiefdave · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
A group of fans with money and the support of a forward thinking council.

The support of the council was vital to the Swansea fans and also vital in the Pomey Trust takeover (the council here loaned the Trust several million to buy Fratton Park off the previous owner of the club). We could, if a viable plan was known, get the fan support but who would play the councils role?

I think we also have a huge disadvantage as SISU don't appear to be in any rush to sell unless they get a decent ROI.

italiahorse · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
A group of fans with money and the support of a forward thinking council.

We currently have 0/2

The councils plan was always to get the stadium back to the club after bailing it out in the first place ........................ then Sisu took over.
In retrospect they should have let CCFC go to the wall with no stadium but, with forward thinking, they didn't.
You could argue that bringing in a PL Rugby side is forward thinking and if CCFC can work with Wasps to get what we require, it's inspired.
Doesn't go easy on the ears for us CCFC fans but we need to get over it.

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

italiahorse said:
The councils plan was always to get the stadium back to the club after bailing it out in the first place ........................ then Sisu took over.
In retrospect they should have let CCFC go to the wall with no stadium but, with forward thinking, they didn't.
You could argue that bringing in a PL Rugby side is forward thinking and if CCFC can work with Wasps to get what we require, it's inspired.
Doesn't go easy on the ears for us CCFC fans but we need to get over it.

With the benefit of hindsight.. I don't think there is a single shred of evidence to suggest that the council's intentions were to return the stadium to the club.. irrespective of whether SISU came in or not.

The model that they created would never allowed the club to have the financial capacity to buy the Ricoh. It was obvious from the start.. especially when the club being on it's knees financially was the reason SISU turned up in the first place.

MichaelCCFC · Jan 7, 2015

Ian and Italia - there's lots of other threads for historic arguments! Are we all agreed that ccfc is in a dire position? If so, why not put out collective thinking caps on as to how things can be moved in a more positive direction?

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

MichaelCCFC said:
Ian and Italia - there's lots of other threads for historic arguments! Are we all agreed that ccfc is in a dire position? If so, why not put out collective thinking caps on as to how things can be moved in a more positive direction?

Build a stadium
Access to revenues
Success on the pitch

That's what we need. Are SISU going to do it? Who knows....

Is there anyone else that will put their money where their mouth is and come and try to do a better job? No evidence so far.

MichaelCCFC · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Build a stadium
Access to revenues
Success on the pitch

That's what we need. Are SISU going to do it? Who knows....

Is there anyone else that will put their money where their mouth is and come and try to do a better job? No evidence so far.

That's what we need. Are SISU going to do it? Who knows...We can all cross our fingers and live in hope but the facts of the matter suggest a pretty clear model of no investment, no interest in footballing success, squeezing out whatever money they can, and having a set up that is easy to liquidate at short notice. No one has any evidence that sisu will act differently and what we are looking at is a slow death not a positive way forward.

Is there anyone else that will put their money where their mouth is and come and try to do a better job? No evidence so far. This thread started with Swansea and their revival started with a group of fans saying they'd had enough and were going to give things a go themselves (with very little money initially). The co-investors and subsequent bigger investments came later. The key points are they didn't sit back and hope things would get better; they didn't sit back and hope a new rich person/consortium would come along - they acted as the catalyst for positive change.

chiefdave · Jan 7, 2015

MichaelCCFC said:
This thread started with Swansea and their revival started with a group of fans saying they'd had enough and were going to give things a go themselves (with very little money initially). The co-investors and subsequent bigger investments came later. The key points are they didn't sit back and hope things would get better; they didn't sit back and hope a new rich person/consortium would come along - they acted as the catalyst for positive change.

To get people on board you need to show them something achieveable, at the moment we have three big differences to Swansea:

1) the Swansea Trust was part of a consortium that took over the club. Straight away you can see our problem, where is our consortium? If, as some people seem to believe, there are consortiums out that waiting to takeover why not make themselves known. If they can involve an element of fan ownership then I'm sure we woudl start to see fans unite behind the idea

2) Swansea's owner was prepared to sell for £20K as he'd purchased the club for £1 and only been there 4 months. SISU have put in millions, or at least that's what we are told, they aren't going to walk away for £20K, where is the money to make them a realistic offer going to come from. Again if it is from a consortium they need to make themselves known.

3) Swansea's council was very supportive, essentially built them a new stadium and gifted it to them, very very different from the actions of our council. How are we going to fund a new stadium or purchase a stake in the Ricoh?

I would love to have something to really get behind and feel there is an achievable goal but I'm not seeing that at the moment.

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

MichaelCCFC said:
That's what we need. Are SISU going to do it? Who knows...We can all cross our fingers and live in hope but the facts of the matter suggest a pretty clear model of no investment, no interest in footballing success, squeezing out whatever money they can, and having a set up that is easy to liquidate at short notice.

Honest to god Michael, you are as bad as that bloody Neutral Fan peddling his franchise bollocks.

The idea that SISU are going to liquidate the club at a moments notice is absolute horse-shit. Someone of your intelligence and influence should know better than to continually spout this scaremongering crap. You know as well as I do, that they only thing of real value they possess is the right to the golden share, and if they were to liquidate it is not worth a single penny.

MichaelCCFC · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Honest to god Michael, you are as bad as that bloody Neutral Fan peddling his franchise bollocks.

The idea that SISU are going to liquidate the club at a moments notice is absolute horse-shit. Someone of your intelligence and influence should know better than to continually spout this scaremongering crap. You know as well as I do, that they only thing of real value they possess is the right to the golden share, and if they were to liquidate it is not worth a single penny.

I didn't say they will liquidate, what I said is the set up is such that they can liquidate at short notice if they need to. The evidence suggests that while they can squeeze some money out of ccfc then they have no reason to liquidate, but that is hardly a guarantee of a positive future!

More generally, no one seems to want to argue that things will improve under sisu but any suggested alternative is rejected. Where does that leave us - witnesses to the slow death of the Sky Blues?

Grendel · Jan 7, 2015

MichaelCCFC said:
I didn't say they will liquidate, what I said is the set up is such that they can liquidate at short notice if they need to. The evidence suggests that while they can squeeze some money out of ccfc then they have no reason to liquidate, but that is hardly a guarantee of a positive future!

More generally, no one seems to want to argue that things will improve under sisu but any suggested alternative is rejected. Where does that leave us - witnesses to the slow death of the Sky Blues?

In what way can they liquidate at short notice and why would they as at least in administration if their were buyers they would get some return as the principal creditor?

chiefdave · Jan 7, 2015

Grendel said:
In what way can they liquidate at short notice and why would they as at least in administration if their were buyers they would get some return as the principal creditor?

Can you legally jump straight to liquidation without going through the administration process?

Speedies_Chips · Jan 7, 2015

Loving this 'Positive thread'.

dongonzalos · Jan 7, 2015

I spoke to a ex Coventry Manager yesterday.

He said the only way forward is a new owner with money. Who care about the club. He also added that if that happened though the council would also need to do a lot more.

Godiva · Jan 7, 2015

Grendel said:
In what way can they liquidate at short notice and why would they as at least in administration if their were buyers they would get some return as the principal creditor?

Or they can buy their own debt back as we saw when Otium took over. The wall of debt is to make sure nobody but sisu dictates if they leave or if they stay.

jimmyhillsfanclub · Jan 7, 2015

dongonzalos said:
I spoke to a ex Coventry Manager yesterday.

He said the only way forward is a new owner with money. Who care about the club. He also added that if that happened though the council would also need to do a lot more.

how insightful of him.....

.....it wasn't Phil "but what do I get out of it" Neal by any chance was it?

Broken Hearted Sky Blue · Jan 7, 2015

dongonzalos said:
I spoke to a ex Coventry Manager yesterday.

He said the only way forward is a new owner with money. Who care about the club. He also added that if that happened though the council would also need to do a lot more.

Can you narrow it down to the nearest 20 or 30 ex managers lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

italiahorse · Jan 7, 2015

MichaelCCFC said:
Ian and Italia - there's lots of other threads for historic arguments! Are we all agreed that ccfc is in a dire position? If so, why not put out collective thinking caps on as to how things can be moved in a more positive direction?

The only option is to get the best deal with Wasps and start winning games. Everything else will drop into place.
A new stadium is futile to discuss.

italiahorse · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
With the benefit of hindsight.. I don't think there is a single shred of evidence to suggest that the council's intentions were to return the stadium to the club.. irrespective of whether SISU came in or not.

The model that they created would never allowed the club to have the financial capacity to buy the Ricoh. It was obvious from the start.. especially when the club being on it's knees financially was the reason SISU turned up in the first place.

There is every evidence that ACL would be owned by CCFC.
There is evidence that "any sensible offer for the stadium would be considered".
That infers that SISU offers were not sensible.
We do know that SISU would only make an offer unencumbered, which was clearly not possible , or desired.

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

italiahorse said:
There is every evidence that ACL would be owned by CCFC.
There is evidence that "any sensible offer for the stadium would be considered".
That infers that SISU offers were not sensible.
We do know that SISU would only make an offer unencumbered, which was clearly not possible , or desired.

Either you misunderstood me or just ignored my point.

The wheels were set in motion by the deal constructed for the club in 2003/4/5. It would never allow the club to ever be in a position of financial strength to acquire the stadium.

That part has nothing to do with SISU as they weren't around.

bigfatronssba · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Either you misunderstood me or just ignored my point.

The wheels were set in motion by the deal constructed by the club in 2003/4/5. It would never allow the club to ever be in a position of financial strength to acquire the stadium.

That part has nothing to do with SISU as they weren't around.

Corrected that for you.

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
Corrected that for you.

Think you'll find your correction is in error. The deal was never constructed by the club.

bigfatronssba · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Think you'll find your correction is in error. The deal was never constructed by the club.

Who got themselves into a situation where the club was virtually bust?

Who went cap in hand begging the council to build the stadium?

Who signed the contract that they negotiated on?

Ian1779 · Jan 7, 2015

bigfatronssba said:
Who got themselves into a situation where the club was virtually bust?

Who went cap in hand begging the council to build the stadium?

Who signed the contract that they negotiated on?

If you call negotiation being bent over a barrel you mean?

I can tell who didn't do it.... you'd be amazed how many people seem to forget that fact.

dongonzalos · Jan 7, 2015

jimmyhillsfanclub said:
how insightful of him.....

.....it wasn't Phil "but what do I get out of it" Neal by any chance was it?

No it wasn't, sorry I was in a rush when typing.
I find someone's opinion who has actually worked in the club interesting to know personally.
He is effectively saying we are going nowhere with these owners
We will also only be going somewhere with owners with cash to splash.
He also was saying even when/if a person with the cash to blow comes in we need the council to be way more helpful then they have.
Yes it is common sense but from someone who was in the thick of it. It was disappointing for me to hear from him effectively he is saying screwed with these owners and new owners have to be multimillionaires who the council like

dongonzalos · Jan 7, 2015

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:
Can you narrow it down to the nearest 20 or 30 ex managers lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry meant came on to actually put his name here. Then thought well I suppose its not right for me to do that.
He was one of our most significant managers of recent time an opinion worth listening to in football. That should narrow it down a lot to be fair

Deleted member 5849 · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Honest to god Michael, you are as bad as that bloody Neutral Fan peddling his franchise bollocks.

The idea that SISU are going to liquidate the club at a moments notice is absolute horse-shit. Someone of your intelligence and influence should know better than to continually spout this scaremongering crap. You know as well as I do, that they only thing of real value they possess is the right to the golden share, and if they were to liquidate it is not worth a single penny.

He does have a point however, that we might be better looking for resolution rather than retreading old arguments.

I can disagree with his preferred models, but I can agree with that.

I can, incidentally, also be afraid that under the current owners, the threat of oblivion is very real indeed.

So yes, I'd like a resolution. Yes, I'd like someone to come up with an idea I could say yep, I'd get behind that (doubtful I know, unless I suggest it ).

And yes, I'd rather see arguing about how to move forward, than arguing about what's been done.

MichaelCCFC · Jan 7, 2015

Deleted member 5849 said:
He does have a point however, that we might be better looking for resolution rather than retreading old arguments.

I can disagree with his preferred models, but I can agree with that.

I can, incidentally, also be afraid that under the current owners, the threat of oblivion is very real indeed.

So yes, I'd like a resolution. Yes, I'd like someone to come up with an idea I could say yep, I'd get behind that (doubtful I know, unless I suggest it ).

And yes, I'd rather see arguing about how to move forward, than arguing about what's been done.

You express things better than me! I'm aware I'm dipping in and out of threads but am up to my neck in other things so will butt out and then reply properly to the points you raised on the other thread (hopefully tomorrow/friday)

Gazolba · Jan 7, 2015

Ian1779 said:
Build a stadium
Access to revenues
Success on the pitch

That's what we need. Are SISU going to do it? Who knows....

Wont work, change the sequence:

1.Success on the pitch
2.Get Promoted
3.Build a Stadium
4.Access to Revenues

Only problem is 1 and 2 require SISU to retain our best players which there is no evidence they will do.

Godiva · Jan 7, 2015

Gazolba said:
Wont work, change the sequence:

1.Success on the pitch
2.Get Promoted
3.Build a Stadium
4.Access to Revenues

Only problem is 1 and 2 require SISU to retain our best players which there is no evidence they will do.

You're not far from Ransons priority when he came in with sisu:
1. Get cost under control
2. Get promoted
3. Buy Higgs shares in ACL

He failed.

The Gentleman · Jan 7, 2015

Godiva said:
You're not far from Ransons priority when he came in with sisu:
1. Get cost under control
2. Get promoted
3. Buy Higgs shares in ACL

He failed.

And just imagine if the wankers had actually put your number 3 as their one and only priority, where would we have been NOW? Mind you, it wouldn't have given you and a lot of others the chance to moan endlessly about CCC/ACL and Wasps. We might have even seen a post from you about football (that's for you Nick)

Hobo · Jan 8, 2015

We need to negotiate a good deal with Wasps.

I say this simply because, even if SISU do intend to build a new stadium, sourcing suitable land then jumping through all the other hoops means it is a long, long way off.

we seem to be getting costs under control, we now need to start having some player retention and add about three to four quality players. We should then be in a position to try and get out of this league. A promotion and back into the Championship would boost the attendances and start to coax a few back.

Sick Boy · Jan 8, 2015

You can blame Ransom for that he said it wasn't important. Yet for some reason many would welcome the demi-god back with open arms, especially italia and ginetta too.

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