A football database (1 Viewer)

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #1

I think this is the footballing equiverlant of the holy grail.

A while ago I tried to show how a computer chess engine works and the rationality behind it, not knowing if football is like chess, a zero-sum game. There is a lot of theory out there that states it is not. I disagree.

I believe chess and football works from the same principles even though the herustics are different.

However, the other part of what the chess world has been building this last decade or so is a games database.


There is though so much more to a game or players database when linked to an engine.


I don't understand why the football world hasn't got something like this.

I just thought it would be interesting to share it with everyone.

 

Last edited: Apr 22, 2017

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #2

There's a browser version of chessbase available freely if anyone wants to have a poke around and see what it does.

ChessBase - Chess database with eight million games. Openings, players, tournaments.

 

Wyken Sky Blue

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #3

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

 

christonabike

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #4

Missed out the T M8!

 

Nick

Administrator

• Apr 15, 2017

• #5

Surely football players are more varied than chess pieces though?

 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #6

Nick said:

Surely football players are more varied than chess pieces though?

Click to expand...

Depends what you mean by varied. They all have a point on a field of play which can be measured.

 

Nick

Administrator

• Apr 15, 2017

• #7

Philosorapter said:

Depends what you mean by varied. They all have a point on a field of play which can be measured.

Click to expand...

Yes but a certain chess piece has the same weapons (moves they can do).

Not every right winger has the same, they might be fast but not be able to cross. Etc

 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #8

Nick said:

Yes but a certain chess piece has the same weapons (moves they can do).

Not every right winger has the same, they might be fast but not be able to cross. Etc

Click to expand...

Exactly, advantages and disadvantages on a field of sport exist objectively and are conditioned by the situation on the pitch.

 

Nick

Administrator

• Apr 15, 2017

• #9

Philosorapter said:

Exactly, advantages and disadvantages on a field of sport exist objectively and are conditioned by the situation on the pitch.

Click to expand...

But surely footballers have a wider range than chess pieces?

 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #10

Objects all have properties. These properties can be objectively measured. It doesn't matter how many properties each object has, as long as you can measure them against other objects which have the same properties but in varying degrees on a playing field.

 

Last edited: Apr 15, 2017

Skybluefaz

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #11

The situations in a football field are so fluid though, I think something along these lines can be done although it's not as cut and dried as in something like baseball sabremetrics where you can measure lots of things like right handed batters v left handed pitchers performance.

 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 15, 2017

• #12

Skybluefaz said:

The situations in a football field are so fluid though, I think something along these lines can be done although it's not as cut and dried as in something like baseball sabremetrics where you can measure lots of things like right handed batters v left handed pitchers performance.

Click to expand...

Going to repost these again and give a link to the book. The appreciation at the beginning of the book is especially worth a read.

http://www.simardartizanfarm.ca/pdf/-_Lasker_s_Manual_of_Chess.pdf

I believe this is one of the first books published that contains the ideas of positional play over combinative play.

"Pawns are the soul of chess" - Philidor

This old chess proverb for me holds the secret of the true nature of a lot of team sports linked with the creative skepticism of breaking down systems as explained in the appreciation at the beginning of the book.

 

Philosoraptor

Well-Known Member

• Apr 16, 2017

• #13

This is a nice option.

 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member

• Apr 16, 2017

• #14

Could be an interesting machine learning problem. If you can get a birds eye view if enough games, split the pitch into a grid, assign each time step a state based on positions of players and ball, you could probably predict most effective positions and moves likely to lead to goals.

Getting the data would be the issue, I bet ProZone have it.

 

robbiekeane

Well-Known Member

• Apr 17, 2017

• #15

So is it a database? Or some kind of model you mean?

Like against this starting 11 with x attributes in each position here are the most effective players and plays etc

 

Gazolba

Well-Known Member

• Apr 17, 2017

• #16

Chess pieces never get tired, frustrated or injured. They also never age, don't have to train and have no concept of loyalty.
Anyone who thinks chess and football are similar is a first-class idiot.
Netball has more in common with football and even that isn't much.