Non AMP
Sky Blues Talk
  • Home
  • Forums
  • Coventry City Football Club
  • Coventry City General Chat
This is a mobile optimized page that loads fast, if you want to load the real page, click this text.

A few thoughts on recent statements (1 Viewer)

  • Thread starter oldskyblue58
  • Start date Jul 24, 2014
Forums New posts
Prev
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
First Prev 3 of 3

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #71
Grendel said:
So on that basis we were grossly overcharged on the original deal weren't we?
Click to expand...

Not sure anyone's ever argued otherwise.

Though of course, on that basis we were in League 1, you'd need the same figures for the Championship to know exactly how grossly we were being overcharged (if we were, I have no idea what the figures are for stadia like ours).
 
T

TheOldFive

New Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #72
oldskyblue58 said:
In terms of the whole site then the RIcoh is not just a football stadium in fact the football stadium part is less than 50%. But that is just an aside more importantly ....

In terms of CCFC then there is even by renting (at a reasonable value) a scenario whereby CCFC could actually be profitable. If the cost structure currently set up ( £4m to £5m )is transferred to the Ricoh then assuming revenues increase to at least 2013 (£6.5m) levels that could see the club profitable (not seen that in decades). The trouble with that is expectation. If fans expect just because we are back at the Ricoh that they splash the cash then I think there is going to be an expectation gap. However SP has proven that you do not need in L1 to spend millions to be successful (well for half a season anyway) certainly it wouldn't take much spending to stabilise the club for a season in the top half and at least challenging. That could be done out of cash flow. Then build from there...
Click to expand...

Superb Post. Nail on the Head.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #73
shmmeee said:
Not sure anyone's ever argued otherwise.

Though of course, on that basis we were in League 1, you'd need the same figures for the Championship to know exactly how grossly we were being overcharged (if we were, I have no idea what the figures are for stadia like ours).
Click to expand...

The key point. We aren't renting a crappy 7,500 seater stadium.

Wait. We are. But I mean, we weren't. You know what I mean
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #74
ccfc92 said:
The key point. We aren't renting a crappy 7,500 seater stadium.

Wait. We are. But I mean, we weren't. You know what I mean
Click to expand...

Be careful pulling at that thread though. You may find yourself making the argument the Ricoh is too big for a club our size.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #75
shmmeee said:
Be careful pulling at that thread though. You may find yourself making the argument the Ricoh is too big for a club our size.
Click to expand...

Yeahh :thinking about:

Silly me. It's not like we sold it out for the "tacky" JPT :facepalm:
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #76
skybluetony176 said:
Not as grossly over charged on that basis at sixfields. Funny our owners don't see that as an issue.
Click to expand...

We are not permenant tenants so that figure is not relevant and you don't know what it is.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #77
shmmeee said:
Not sure anyone's ever argued otherwise.

Though of course, on that basis we were in League 1, you'd need the same figures for the Championship to know exactly how grossly we were being overcharged (if we were, I have no idea what the figures are for stadia like ours).
Click to expand...

Portman road - £115,000
The Kc stadium - £54,000
City ground - under £200,000
Swansea - nothing

I'm not sure how many more council owned stadiums were there during our time. Ultimately though there is no correlation between ground quality, seats or capacity. It's a smokescreen. Ultimately it's the value the council place on a successful club in its city.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #78
Grendel said:
We are not permenant tenants so igure is not relevant and you don't know what it is.
Click to expand...

Using OSB's formula it shouldn't be much over £20k a season. Are you suggesting it's less than that?
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #79
Grendel said:
We are not permenant tenants so that figure is not relevant and you don't know what it is.
Click to expand...

Would it be relevant if it was your point you were trying to prove?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #80
skybluetony176 said:
Using OSB's formula it shouldn't be much over £20k a season. Are you suggesting it's less than that?
Click to expand...

I'm suggesting his formula is nonsense as shown by the fact that London road is three times the price of Portman road.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #81
Grendel said:
I'm suggesting his formula is nonsense as shown by the fact that London road is three times the price of Portman road.
Click to expand...

I'm only interested in the club (that's your usual line isn't it) and where our club is concerned suxfields is the worst rent deal this club has ever had to endure. And that's before you factor in things like location, facilities etc.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #82
skybluetony176 said:
I'm only interested in the club (that's your usual line isn't it) and where our club is concerned suxfields is the worst rent deal this club has ever had to endure. And that's before you factor in things like location, facilities etc.
Click to expand...

I've played football at places with better facilities than Sixfields
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #83
skybluetony176 said:
I'm only interested in the club (that's your usual line isn't it) and where our club is concerned suxfields is the worst rent deal this club has ever had to endure. And that's before you factor in things like location, facilities etc.
Click to expand...

I don't know what the deal is - how much do they pay and do they get F and B revenue included?

It's also not worse if it was full every week which again renders the capacity argument worthless.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #84
Grendel said:
I don't know what the deal is - how much do they pay and do they get F and B revenue included?

It's also not worse if it was full every week which again renders the capacity argument worthless.
Click to expand...

Do you have a rough estimate of how much sixfields rent is per year/ our use?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #85
ccfc92 said:
Do you have a rough estimate of how much sixfields rent is per year/ our use?
Click to expand...

The figure quoted is £175,000 with access to revenues and zero match day costs. Could be rubbish but if it's true a full house would make it viable.'

It's a deal with the lease owner though and not the council so it's not relevant really.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #86
Grendel said:
I don't know what the deal is - how much do they pay and do they get F and B revenue included?

It's also not worse if it was full every week which again renders the capacity argument worthless.
Click to expand...

How many tens of thousands of pounds are they making of the F&B from an average 2000 a week?

From the NTFC fans I've talked to general consensus is it's around £175k a season the lowest figure I was told was £150 a season. From what Rob S said the £220k OSB suggested using his formula was too high to be entertained. If that's true and we filled suxfields game in and game out sisu are paying less than £81k a season to even entertain it.

Can you see that being the case?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #87
Grendel said:
The figure quoted is £175,000 with access to revenues and zero match day costs. Could be rubbish but if it's true a full house would make it viable.'

It's a deal with the lease owner though and not the council so it's not relevant really.
Click to expand...

A full house would spell the end of this club. There's nothing viable about that.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #88
What's the current capacity of Sixfields? 7k or so?

If we were selling it out, there's a good argument we'd be selling 10-11k if not more in Cov. It'll never be like for like for the simple reason that it's not in Cov.

@G: you have a point about rent not correlating to ground quality. I've always said id be happy for CCFC to play at cost, would be a great move by ACL, but less likely with the current owners.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #89
Grendel said:
The figure quoted is £175,000 with access to revenues and zero match day costs. Could be rubbish but if it's true a full house would make it viable.'

It's a deal with the lease owner though and not the council so it's not relevant really.
Click to expand...

Just done the maths, and yes. Probably a huge profit, in relation to income minus rent. But then take off wages etc, and that profit of £1.2 million (5,500 x £253 - the adult price for a premium season ticket) suddenly goes away. Going on the basis 2,000 attendees are away fans.

7,500 fans in there, how many spend money at the ground? Let's say 5,000 spend £5. £25,000 per game. £575,000 per season. So £1.2 million + £575,000 F+B. So round that off at £2million.

And that's in the best scenario of 7,500 adults paying full whack for season tickets. So what's our outgoings?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #90
skybluetony176 said:
How many tens of thousands of pounds are they making of the F&B from an average 2000 a week?

From the NTFC fans I've talked to general consensus is it's around £175k a season the lowest figure I was told was £150 a season. From what Rob S said the £220k OSB suggested using his formula was too high to be entertained. If that's true and we filled suxfields game in and game out sisu are paying less than £81k a season to even entertain it.

Can you see that being the case?
Click to expand...

I've consigned OSB's analysis in the bin where it belongs. It tries to present rational calculations to an industry that's totally irrational. Its a fatally flawed piece if work I'm afraid.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #91
Grendel said:
Portman road - £115,000
The Kc stadium - £54,000
City ground - under £200,000
Swansea - nothing

I'm not sure how many more council owned stadiums were there during our time. Ultimately though there is no correlation between ground quality, seats or capacity. It's a smokescreen. Ultimately it's the value the council place on a successful club in its city.
Click to expand...

Man City pay at least 2.5m IIRC. And they were not given a 50% share in anything.
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #92
Grendel said:
I've consigned OSB's analysis in the bin where it belongs. It tries to present rational calculations to an industry that's totally irrational. Its a fatally flawed piece if work I'm afraid.
Click to expand...
Are you calling SISU an industry now?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #93
Astute said:
Are you calling SISU an industry now?
Click to expand...

The FOOTBALL industry - Christ.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #94
Astute said:
Man City pay at least 2.5m IIRC. And they were not given a 50% share in anything.
Click to expand...

What's the deal for them if they are in the championship or league one?

Also why are you scrabbling around trying to find ab example of a higher rent? Find one outside the premier league - find one.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #95
Grendel said:
I've consigned OSB's analysis in the bin where it belongs. It tries to present rational calculations to an industry that's totally irrational. Its a fatally flawed piece if work I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

I assume you mean attendances/ spending up and down with regards football?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #96
ccfc92 said:
I assume you mean attendances/ spending up and down with regards football?
Click to expand...

I mean there is no logic in football at all. % of turnover on salaries, constant losses, workers paid massively more than management. And of course rental payments.
 

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #97
Grendel said:
workers paid massively more than management.
Click to expand...

Spoken like true management
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #98
Grendel said:
I've consigned OSB's analysis in the bin where it belongs. It tries to present rational calculations to an industry that's totally irrational. Its a fatally flawed piece if work I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

It's a shame sisu didn't use it when they signed us up to suxfields. It would have got us a better deal than they managed themselves and at the same time they expect to pay less at the Ricoh than using the formula. If nothing else it proves sisu are flawed.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #99
Grendel said:
I mean there is no logic in football at all. % of turnover on salaries, constant losses, workers paid massively more than management. And of course rental payments.
Click to expand...

But surely going by them points, it's the same as any other business?

Normally in wages it's: Managers > Workers.

In football it's: Players > Mangers/Board.

Plus with regards turnover in normal business, you use this to reinvest to make the business grow. So surely using a % of turnover to get better players (reinvesting) grows the business?

And with regards rental payments, I don't know many businesses that don't pay for premises, water, electric, heating.....


As much as I agree football seems to be a unique industry, the foundations of the industry are the same as any other surely?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #100
Grendel said:
What's the deal for them if they are in the championship or league one?

Also why are you scrabbling around trying to find ab example of a higher rent? Find one outside the premier league - find one.
Click to expand...

Higher than what?
 

SIR ERNIE

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #101
Grendel said:
I've consigned OSB's analysis in the bin where it belongs. It tries to present rational calculations to an industry that's totally irrational. Its a fatally flawed piece if work I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

hahahaha

Seriously, I nearly choked on my glass of fine merlot.


Grendel has consigned OSB's analysis to the bin.... It's flawed.


hahahaha


priceless stuff.

I'm sure OSB won't seep tonight.
 

bigfatronssba

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #102
Grendel said:
Portman road - £115,000
The Kc stadium - £54,000
City ground - under £200,000
Swansea - nothing

I'm not sure how many more council owned stadiums were there during our time. Ultimately though there is no correlation between ground quality, seats or capacity. It's a smokescreen. Ultimately it's the value the council place on a successful club in its city.
Click to expand...

Wrong. In our democratic, free market society (which judging from your posts you don't appear to be a fan of), the price of everything is determined by demand and supply. It doesn't matter if that is a football stadium or a tin of beans.

Now demand is the football club, and supply is the Ricoh. The level of rent for being the exclusive tenant is dependant on what the football club is willing to pay, and what ACL is willing to accept. For 6 years CCFC were willing to accept the rent as being £1.3m, and ACL were willing to accept that.

CCFC were then no longer willing to accept the rent at that level, hence the negotiations, ACL seen this and were then willing to reduce their demands as free market forces dictate. However ACL, like any business, would only accept a rental reduction of so much, as it starts to reach the point where hosting matches would be no longer profitable. So when Sisu started to take the piss is when this all broke down.

So in a nutshell, rental values have nothing to do with local authorities. They are dependant only on demand and supply.

Demand = The amount of potential users of the Ricoh arena, those willing to pay the most getting priority.

Supply = The amount of 20k+ all seater stadiums in Coventry.

Just these two things, nothing else.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #103
ccfc92 said:
But surely going by them points, it's the same as any other business?

Normally in wages it's: Managers > Workers.

In football it's: Players > Mangers/Board.

Plus with regards turnover in normal business, you use this to reinvest to make the business grow. So surely using a % of turnover to get better players (reinvesting) grows the business?

And with regards rental payments, I don't know many businesses that don't pay for premises, water, electric, heating.....


As much as I agree football seems to be a unique industry, the foundations of the industry are the same as any other surely?
Click to expand...

In a normal industry most clubs would not exist. The wealth escalation I'm the premiership is the over riding issue. Relegation from that league usually brings destruction unless an instant return happens. No industry is like football. QPR had more revenue two years ago than ever before but I'd they hadn't been promoted last year would have faced oblivion. That's absurd. Wage escalation has damaged football in the UK and there is no solution. Consider the fact that a F A Cup winner like Micky Gynn earned £200 a week at Coventry and Carl Baker earns £8,000 in league one. My wages have increased tenfold in that period,
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 25, 2014
  • #104
Grendel said:
In a normal industry most clubs would not exist. The wealth escalation I'm the premiership is the over riding issue. Relegation from that league usually brings destruction unless an instant return happens. No industry is like football. QPR had more revenue two years ago than ever before but I'd they hadn't been promoted last year would have faced oblivion. That's absurd. Wage escalation has damaged football in the UK and there is no solution. Consider the fact that a F A Cup winner like Micky Gynn earned £200 a week at Coventry and Carl Baker earns £8,000 in league one. My wages have increased tenfold in that period,
Click to expand...

I completely agree with your reply.

But surely a club who has never been in the Premiership/ had huge financial success, would be running in a close to profit/ break even financial situation?

My point being, only a well run club could get to the football league from semi-pro level to start with surely?
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
  • Jul 26, 2014
  • #105
Grendel said:
Portman road - £115,000
The Kc stadium - £54,000
City ground - under £200,000
Swansea - nothing

I'm not sure how many more council owned stadiums were there during our time. Ultimately though there is no correlation between ground quality, seats or capacity. It's a smokescreen. Ultimately it's the value the council place on a successful club in its city.
Click to expand...

Good choice of grounds.

Portman road. An old ground that owes nobody anything. Just like HR was, but our club still paid over 1m a year rent to a developer and not CCC.

KC stadium. As I have informed you a few times in the past the ground was paid for with money that belonged to the people of Hull and not council money. No loans were needed. The rent was set at the stadiums upkeep level. The clubs owners can't buy the stadium as it belongs to the people of Hull. And yes I was living in the area through the planning stage through to the build of it. I worked with many STH's of the club. I know what went on.

Swansea? The ground where it looks like illegal funding could be looked at and that isn't by the clubs owners.
 
Prev
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
First Prev 3 of 3
You must log in or register to reply here.

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Share:
Facebook Twitter Reddit Pinterest Tumblr WhatsApp Email
  • Home
  • Forums
  • Coventry City Football Club
  • Coventry City General Chat
  • Default Style
  • Contact us
  • Terms and rules
  • Privacy policy
  • Help
  • Home
Community platform by XenForo® © 2010-2021 XenForo Ltd.
Menu
Log in

Register

  • Home
  • Forums
    • New posts
    • Search forums
  • What's new
    • New posts
    • Latest activity
  • Members
    • Current visitors
  • Donate to the Season Ticket Fund
X

Privacy & Transparency

We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:

  • Personalized ads and content
  • Content measurement and audience insights

Do you accept cookies and these technologies?

X

Privacy & Transparency

We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:

  • Personalized ads and content
  • Content measurement and audience insights

Do you accept cookies and these technologies?