£100-120m (1 Viewer)

fernandopartridge · Nov 29, 2016

Wasps reckon they're going to invest the above in "hotel and retail" in Cov. Car Park C mentioned. Armstrong sees ACL as a property developer with a rugby club pinned on.
Also reckon they're the 3rd largest employer in Cov (which I am sure is utter rubbish); Council, 2 universities, Jag, UHCW, Severn Trent are all far bigger along with others. I don't think having lots of staff registered on zero hours contracts with Compass counts in the same way.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

This quote sums up exactly why Wasps should be avoided, and why they're the complete antithesis of a sports team.

David Armstrong said:
He [Armstrong] added that the [sic. Cov Tel clearly don't employ proofreaders] he saw Wasps as a real estate business “with a rugby bit stuck on”.

Nick · Nov 29, 2016

I'm sure they were asked about:

But despite his business success he has maintained a low profile, leading to rumours over his motives for the Ricoh takeover.

Some have suggested he is more interested in the land around the Ricoh than the stadium, but he dismissed that.

He said: "I’m not a property developer, I’ve never developed anything in my life.

"I’ve never thought of this as something I might make profit from.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2016

must admit I was surprised at the 3rd largest employer claim, as fp lists there would seem to be more with quite a few other employers. Isn't it Compass that employ the staff in any case?

That aside if this development happens then I would think it further marginalises the need for CCFC to be there to make the stadium succeed and reduces the impact on the Ricoh of CCFC moving elsewhere. Further weakening the negotiating hand SISU or any new owners have to play if they wanted to stay at the arena. It may allow Wasps to offer CCFC all the match day income (probably less a commission) but I would think CCFC get the full match day costs and a full rent if that happens

To me it makes sense for the stadium to develop other income streams that marry with all of the events etc that are going on, and to reduce the reliance on major sport (Football or Rugby)

Talk of Rugby being an add on perhaps also points to the sort of stadium sponsorship being sought - one that highlights the business rather than the sport. It also points perhaps to the impact that CCFC has or will have on that sponsorship.

I am sure there would be investors interested in developing hotels etc on the site - it would seem Indian & Chinese investors still look to the UK to invest in such projects although Brexit has had an effect

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
and reduces the impact on the Ricoh of CCFC moving elsewhere

In a positive sense, might make the local council more disposed to help us find some land/sort out an actually practical Butts proposal...

If I were a Wasps fan, I'd be very worried about the comments in that interview. It shows that a ruthless business who use a club as a battering ram to other means, would have no qualms in dumping the club/shifting it elsewhere/blowing them up if it were needed to be done.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2016

That said NW it also shows a business with a plan and a drive to push it through ............... which has coincided with improved fortunes on the pitch

It might help the council do that or it might make them say well at present we don't have to focus on CCFC at all

all sorts of different view points can be taken on this. At the moment I don't really view this as positive news from a CCFC angle

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
That said NW it also shows a business with a plan and a drive to push it through ............... which has coincided with improved fortunes on the pitch

Ultimately though, I'd always be bothered about the club.

On a smaller scale, we tried under Richardson to diversify (brought publishing in house) but it took the focus away from the core, and there's plenty of other (better) examples of that, too. Formula 1's a good industry to note that a lack of focus often means performance slips as unsuccessful areas away from the core of the team, drag the team down both in focus, and losses.

In this Wasps case... the core isn't even Wasps, it seems! And that, then, becomes dangerous to Wasps not only on a cultural level (if the development succeeds, Wasps aren't needed either, so less incentive to push them. Also while trying to make it succeed, focus can shift away from the club - in a negative sense we can see that with CCFC over the years, with Ricoh stadium planning kicking that off) but also, potentially, financial (if it makes losses, it can drag Wasps down with it).

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2016

Agree NW but

The average Wasps fan is seeing success on the pitch, are they really going to focus on what is going on in the events hall or hotel? So long as the playing side continues to succeed then the cultural impact of Wasps in this area will continue to grow, which will assist promotion of the stadium site but will not financially under pin it

Most businesses that diversify and fail do so because they go in to something that doesn't relate to the core business. What is the core business at the stadium financially? Wasps RFC or the events/conferences etc. Isnt that the point Armstrong is making, the core business drives the site and enables investment in Wasps RFC - it is not the other way round. In 2016 financials 2/3rds of income was not Wasps RFC related and the majority of the losses made related to Wasps RFC. The developments are closely related to the core business in this case, there is risk but a managed one.

Yes if the 2/3rds starts losing money then that is a big problem for Wasps RFC. Can Wasps RFC be profitable on its own - it doesn't look like it

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
the core business drives the site and enables investment in Wasps RFC

Which is my point. If Wasps are a small element, why invest in something that loses money?

You would, if it were the brand that drove the stadium. But ironically those two brands would be CCFC and CRFC who could do that, with their cultural embedding. Wasps? Less so. It appears they've been used as a battering ram to get what they wanted in terms of infrastructure, but in 5, 10 years time it all looks even more risky from my POV, because failure drags them down... success makes them irrelevant.

Also not necessarily true about diversifying away from the core. The publishing programme was media / entertainment driven, and F1 teams inevitably go off on technological projects. To my mind, the parallels are absolute... except in this instance, the Wasps 'brand' is weaker than many to begin with and needs building up in parallel... or marginalising.

Nick · Nov 29, 2016

About the 3rd biggest employer thing, where could they be?

Granted they might have a few hundred staff on a match day or for a concert every couple of weeks but how is that the 3rd biggest employer over places like:

Cov Uni
Warwick Uni
Cov Uni Hospital
Severn Trent
JLR

Is the Ricoh swarming with thousands of staff every day now?

Even places like Tesco will employ more people than Wasps do in Coventry.

People will already be saying how great they are, 3rd biggest employer in the city etc etc.

stupot07 · Nov 29, 2016

How many do they employ? Just looking at a document, albeit from 2011 and ccfc were thr joint 29th top employer with 500 staff, but that includes stewards. Back then there were 19 organisations that employed 1000+, 9 organisations 2000+, 5 organisations 3500+:

NHS trust 3.5k
Cov uni 4.6k
War uni 6k
University hospital 6.5k
Council 15.6k

Obviously there have been some cuts since (for eg council, etc), but do wasps really employ 6k+ people?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

stupot07 said:
Obviously Vern some cusys since

Yeah, man?

Nick · Nov 29, 2016

stupot07 said:
How many do they employ? Just looking at a document, albeit from 2011 and ccfc were thr joint 29th top employer with 500 staff, but that includes stewards. Back then there were 19 organisations that employed 1000+, 9 organisations 2000+, 5 organisations 3500+:

NHS trust 3.5k
Cov uni 4.6k
War uni 6k
University hospital 6.5k
Council 15.6k

Obviously there have been some cuts since (for eg council, etc), but do wasps really employ 6k+ people?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Where would they employ them all?

Won't it say on their accounts staff numbers?

robbieray · Nov 29, 2016

Probably not in the winter but loads of wasps in summer

italiahorse · Nov 29, 2016

Putting aside Wasps.
This is exactly the sort of development we want in the area.
I'm just hoping that CCFC can become part of it.
Just one question though. Surely the stadium needs car park C for cars ?
I know the 2 hotel plans still left plenty of spaces but retail would take the rest.

Otis · Nov 29, 2016

italiahorse said:
Putting aside Wasps.
This is exactly the sort of development we want in the area.
I'm just hoping that CCFC can become part of it.
Just one question though. Surely the stadium needs car park C for cars ?
I know the 2 hotel plans still left plenty of spaces but retail would take the rest.

I said previously, when Wasps said they were not interested in the land why didn't Sisu try and acquire it themselves. More than enough room for our academy and also could have done the retail/conference facilities too.

Liquid Gold · Nov 29, 2016

italiahorse said:
Putting aside Wasps.
This is exactly the sort of development we want in the area.
I'm just hoping that CCFC can become part of it.
Just one question though. Surely the stadium needs car park C for cars ?
I know the 2 hotel plans still left plenty of spaces but retail would take the rest.

Nick · Nov 29, 2016

italiahorse said:
Putting aside Wasps.
This is exactly the sort of development we want in the area.
I'm just hoping that CCFC can become part of it.
Just one question though. Surely the stadium needs car park C for cars ?
I know the 2 hotel plans still left plenty of spaces but retail would take the rest.

If only there were other car parks about?

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

italiahorse said:
This is exactly the sort of development we want in the area.

Genuine question, but is it? (I mean that particular area, rather than Coventry as a whole).

tbh I don't know either way. It is still a bit of a wasteland around there, so building up some other facilities could be good, could make it feel a bit more lived in.

I dunno though, developements like this make town and city centres a bit dead. Not just Coventry - Rugby's town centre had held up reasonably well until lately, and now the Elliot's Field redevelopment has started to do for that.

I'd like to see what specifically is going in it tbh. It *could* work...

italiahorse · Nov 29, 2016

Nick said:
If only there were other car parks about?

Every cloud has a silver lining.

duffer · Nov 29, 2016

Nick said:
About the 3rd biggest employer thing, where could they be?

Granted they might have a few hundred staff on a match day or for a concert every couple of weeks but how is that the 3rd biggest employer over places like:

Cov Uni
Warwick Uni
Cov Uni Hospital
Severn Trent
JLR

Is the Ricoh swarming with thousands of staff every day now?

Even places like Tesco will employ more people than Wasps do in Coventry.

People will already be saying how great they are, 3rd biggest employer in the city etc etc.

Absolutely Nick. Third largest employer my arse, that claim is risible. The thousands of vacancies available at ACL are shown here http://www.ricoharena.com/careers/

In short though it's casual staff for food and drink provision, stewards for Wasps, and maybe a shot at being a hotel receptionist. Entirely valid work, but there must be loads of businesses in the city that employ more full-time staff than ACL and Wasps - and many that employ more part-time/casual staff too.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

Only thought is they mean in terms of wages paid out? Haskell and co don't come cheap.

chiefdave · Nov 29, 2016

You have to laugh, if you replaced Armstrong and Wasps with Fisher and CCFC in that statement there would be uproar.

The Reverend Skyblue · Nov 29, 2016

Otis said:
I said previously, when Wasps said they were not interested in the land why didn't Sisu try and acquire it themselves. More than enough room for our academy and also could have done the retail/conference facilities too.

Because their pathetic turnover of 2 million and tiny profits means they haven't got a pot to piss in, they cant afford a window box let alone actual land.
A funeral home does more business than them.

Otis · Nov 29, 2016

chiefdave said:
You have to laugh, if you replaced Armstrong and Wasps with Fisher and CCFC in that statement there would be uproar.

Difference is though, Dave, Fisher and CCFC are in control of our team, our Sky Blues.

If you turn it on its head and replaced Fisher and CCFC with Arnstrong and Wasps (them in charge of us) then there would indeed be uproar.

italiahorse · Nov 29, 2016

chiefdave said:
You have to laugh, if you replaced Armstrong and Wasps with Fisher and CCFC in that statement there would be uproar.

At least it would be a statement.
I'm not even sure if Fisher exists anymore.

fernandopartridge · Nov 29, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
must admit I was surprised at the 3rd largest employer claim, as fp lists there would seem to be more with quite a few other employers. Isn't it Compass that employ the staff in any case?

That aside if this development happens then I would think it further marginalises the need for CCFC to be there to make the stadium succeed and reduces the impact on the Ricoh of CCFC moving elsewhere. Further weakening the negotiating hand SISU or any new owners have to play if they wanted to stay at the arena. It may allow Wasps to offer CCFC all the match day income (probably less a commission) but I would think CCFC get the full match day costs and a full rent if that happens

To me it makes sense for the stadium to develop other income streams that marry with all of the events etc that are going on, and to reduce the reliance on major sport (Football or Rugby)

Talk of Rugby being an add on perhaps also points to the sort of stadium sponsorship being sought - one that highlights the business rather than the sport. It also points perhaps to the impact that CCFC has or will have on that sponsorship.

I am sure there would be investors interested in developing hotels etc on the site - it would seem Indian & Chinese investors still look to the UK to invest in such projects although Brexit has had an effect

Developers haven't been interested in previous proposals for the site but suppose there are additional events taking place (14?) Wasps matches, though you'd imagine most people won't stay over.
Where would the £120m come from?

Captain Dart · Nov 29, 2016

Otis said:
I said previously, when Wasps said they were not interested in the land why didn't Sisu try and acquire it themselves. More than enough room for our academy and also could have done the retail/conference facilities too.

In my opinion SISU are not interested in long term plans. They'd only buy if they could get it and flip it for a profit they would. I do not believe SISU will ever build anything.

oldskyblue58 · Nov 29, 2016

I was told several years ago that SISU were offered the chance to develop car park C ...... and turned it down (which I can understand in many ways, although it could have been a way to create some wealth) ..... I have no idea of the proposal details...... but it would seem the opportunity was there and has been for years.

Putting aside the employment claims, such developments are with an aim for profit that's not wrong be it Wasps or SISU, but it means Wasps are putting down some serious roots with this and other proposed developments. There is a plan to it, there is drive to it, there is support from other decision makers, that should worry the decision makers at CCFC - how do they even begin to compete going forward. Its great CCFC have the history in Coventry - are the Coventry team- but what of the future when there appears little plan, drive, partnership, finance, or proper roots?

Front men of organisations come and go. What they say is often not quite what they mean sometimes for good reason, but do too much double talk then it is damaging and leads to an automatic assumption of falsehood.

The bigger picture could be seen that such a development of car park C ties in with the aspirations of the City as a whole to bring expanding revenue and jobs..... in which case why would it not be looked on favourably

Nick · Nov 29, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
I was told several years ago that SISU were offered the chance to develop car park C ...... and turned it down (which I can understand in many ways, although it could have been a way to create some wealth) ..... I have no idea of the proposal details...... but it would seem the opportunity was there and has been for years.

Putting aside the employment claims, such developments are with an aim for profit that's not wrong be it Wasps or SISU, but it means Wasps are putting down some serious roots with this and other proposed developments. There is a plan to it, there is drive to it, there is support from other decision makers, that should worry the decision makers at CCFC - how do they even begin to compete going forward. Its great CCFC have the history in Coventry - are the Coventry team- but what of the future when there appears little plan, drive, partnership, finance, or proper roots?

Front men of organisations come and go. What they say is often not quite what they mean sometimes for good reason, but do too much double talk then it is damaging and leads to an automatic assumption of falsehood.

The bigger picture could be seen that such a development of car park C ties in with the aspirations of the City as a whole to bring expanding revenue and jobs..... in which case why would it not be looked on favourably

It's all well and good saying what they say and what they mean, but I think the article was entitled something like "Wasps motives for the Ricoh deal" where people raised concerns and it was outright denied. Imagine if that was Fisher, how many articles would be run?

I guess it will all just get brushed away though.

The same as the condition about the Wasps sale in the first place, that like you say is beginning to look further away.

Bennets Afro · Nov 29, 2016

Didnt Richardson enquire about the ricoh and developing the land around it before he even had anything to do with wasps?

Nick · Nov 29, 2016

Bennets Afro said:
Didnt Richardson enquire about the ricoh and developing the land around it before he even had anything to do with wasps?

Yep, 2012 I think it was

chiefdave · Nov 29, 2016

Bennets Afro said:
Didnt Richardson enquire about the ricoh and developing the land around it before he even had anything to do with wasps?

And the council rejected one of the interested parties before we ended up with SISU as they wanted to develop land around the Ricoh. Recall the council leader at the time (Mutton I think) declaring it wasn't a development opportunity.

Captain Dart · Nov 29, 2016

oldskyblue58 said:
The bigger picture could be seen that such a development of car park C ties in with the aspirations of the City as a whole to bring expanding revenue and jobs..... in which case why would it not be looked on favourably

I always thought that was the case and the Council were keen on it because it would bring jobs, I was very surprised when Wasps refuted it. I don't see building a hotel as anything but a positive move. SISU could have done this but as I've stated time & time again my belief is that, SISU WILL NEVER BUILD ANYTHING.

Deleted member 5849 · Nov 29, 2016

Captain Dart said:
I always thought that was the case and the Council were keen on it because it would bring jobs

Sure it wasn't accidental that Haskell (a property developer) was preferred choice of CCFC owner by certain parties...

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