£1.25 m bid for Port Vale (1 Viewer)

italiahorse · May 6, 2017

I struggle to see what's in it for Sisu unless its some accounting trick they can benefit from.
If someone wants to get the club off Sisu at asset value then they will need to wait until it liquidates.
Buying it over value with £20M debt to start off is not going to work.
Fans are concerned that liquidation means dropping down several leagues but as we approach these lower leagues it becomes not such a big step.
Do we start again in the depths or do we spend many years working down towards them?
With this point you can see why some believe starving the club of income is a way of getting the club back.
To sum up ............. we are fukced !!

Grendel · May 6, 2017

Port vale fans acknowledge he will never sell at that price.

italiahorse · May 6, 2017

Grendel said:
Port vale fans acknowledge he will never sell at that price.

We could do with some acknowledgement from our owners that they will sell at the right price.
Gives any fans and potential buyers a bit of an incentive to struggle on.

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

Grendel said:
Port vale fans acknowledge he will never sell at that price.

Supporters' Club chief Porter welcomes Synectics' Port Vale bid

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

Two buyers have met asking price for Port Vale FC says “tired” owner Norman Smurthwaite – onevalefan.co.uk

Interesting article quoting smurthwaite. Has had offers already matching his valuation but from hedge funds so is reluctant.

mark82 · May 6, 2017

singers_pore said:
The club is worth less and less every year that it is owned by SISU for the simple reason that SISU have no idea how to run a football club. Therefore, it's in their interests to sell as quickly as they can. Indeed I am sure that SISU would have got a lot more if they had sold the club before they lost the option to purchase half of ACL. Every decision they make is value destroying so if they were acting in their own best interests they would sell now.

Unfortunately, as we know from past history, Joy is totally irrational. IIRC even Fisher once said that Joy is nuts. Therefore, commonsense logic just doesn't apply to their behavior.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that GH has not offered enough. I reckon an offer of around 5m-8m should do it (with SISU having to write off all their liabilities).

Other than a slight difference in what we think Sisu may bite at (and that's all speculation and guess work anyway), it seems we are pretty much on the same page.

mark82 · May 6, 2017

Captain Dart said:
Because it becomes more trouble to keep than let go.
Unless SISU can take an annual profit why would they keep it along with all the associated negative publicity.
Surely they'd be better to flip it for what they can get and move on.

I'm just not sure they see it that way. They are pretty much breaking even or even making a small profit now so maybe think they can just hang onto it.

mark82 · May 6, 2017

italiahorse said:
I struggle to see what's in it for Sisu unless its some accounting trick they can benefit from.
If someone wants to get the club off Sisu at asset value then they will need to wait until it liquidates.
Buying it over value with £20M debt to start off is not going to work.
Fans are concerned that liquidation means dropping down several leagues but as we approach these lower leagues it becomes not such a big step.
Do we start again in the depths or do we spend many years working down towards them?
With this point you can see why some believe starving the club of income is a way of getting the club back.
To sum up ............. we are fukced !!

You heard anything more yet? Your post suggests you're not confident of another bid.

I think if they took the club for £1 plus the debt (if it is £20m) it could work out long term (most football clubs have debt). As far as I'm aware no bid for the club with the debt has been made, only for the assets at what seems under the asset value plus some never never money.

chiefdave · May 6, 2017

dongonzalos said:
Is this bid just for Port Vale FC or does it include the stadium?
IT has to be for both. Every element of Port Vale has to be consolidated. You have to know as a fan that if you are buying a matchday ticket, a shirt, a drink on the concourse or having your party at the club, that all the revenue is going into Port Vale FC. Only by having everything together can we achieve that.

The ground is owned by a separate company who have no intention of selling it. If they want the ground as well they would need to make a separate bid for that and I'd imagine that on its own would be worth more than £1.25m.

chiefdave · May 6, 2017

mark82 said:
I'm just not sure they see it that way. They are pretty much breaking even or even making a small profit now so maybe think they can just hang onto it.

Don't know why people can't grasp this. SISU couldn't care less about the success of the club or what division we are in. They want the club run at break even.

If season tickets / attendances are down next season the budget will be cut accordingly. If that means another relegation they won't care. They'll just move us to the Butts / Nuneaton and have the club running break even in non league.

dongonzalos · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
The ground is owned by a separate company who have no intention of selling it. If they want the ground as well they would need to make a separate bid for that and I'd imagine that on its own would be worth more than £1.25m.

The quote is directly from them.

Brylowes · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Don't know why people can't grasp this. SISU couldn't care less about the success of the club or what division we are in. They want the club run at break even.

If season tickets / attendances are down next season the budget will be cut accordingly. If that means another relegation they won't care. They'll just move us to the Butts / Nuneaton and have the club running break even in non league.

Yeah all of this, yet we should still hand over our money for STs so as we can observe
At close quarters our journey on the road to nothingness.

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
The ground is owned by a separate company who have no intention of selling it. If they want the ground as well they would need to make a separate bid for that and I'd imagine that on its own would be worth more than £1.25m.

The ground is also owned by Smurfwaite. Both the club and ground are registered at the same address so presumably it's a prop co/ op co arrangement. So not necessarily true Dave. Smurfwaite could well be selling them together. For the right offer.

Has smurfwaite actually said he has no intention of selling the ground or are you speculating?

chiefdave · May 6, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
Has smurfwaite actually said he has no intention of selling the ground or are you speculating?

IS THE CLUB SPLIT INTO TWO COMPANIES?

"When we bought the club out of administration, Paul (Wildes), and I believe this to be one of the only good things he ever did, split the business so the stadium is owned by one company and the operating club is owned by the other.

"That was done for two very important reasons. One, if this business went into difficulty and went bust, it doesn't affect the stadium.

"It meant that somebody would have to come back to the landlord, me, and ask to play football and pay a fee for doing so, so the stadium is always safe.

"Secondly if the club was subsequently sold, I will only sell unless it is to cast iron people. So if they ever did screw it up at least I am still there to come back to pick up the pieces and try again.

"There is no rent being charged, no funny business going on. I am not taking a penny out of this club of any description.

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

So he is interested selling the ground then with the club, so long as it's to the right people. Probably why he's put the club on the market then. He's already had a couple of hedge funds make offers before he put the club on the market and he's not keen on them. So it sounds like he's only interested in selling the club to the right people also. So if he sells the club to someone you'd have to say it's also possible he'd sell them the ground also.

singers_pore · May 6, 2017

mark82 said:
You heard anything more yet? Your post suggests you're not confident of another bid.

I think if they took the club for £1 plus the debt (if it is £20m) it could work out long term (most football clubs have debt). As far as I'm aware no bid for the club with the debt has been made, only for the assets at what seems under the asset value plus some never never money.

If anyone bought the club on those terms, SISU would immediately file for repayment of the 20m causing the club to go into bankruptcy. The only thing preventing bankruptcy right now is that the lender is also the owner. If you separate the loan and ownership, bankruptcy will become inevitable.

chiefdave · May 6, 2017

skybluetony176 said:
So if he sells the club to someone you'd have to say it's also possible he'd sell them the ground also.

Its possible but it would be a separate transaction. Its also very possible he won't as he's talking about giving the club a 25 year lease if he sells and about him being able to ensure the ground doesn't get sold off if the club hits financial problems.

singers_pore · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Its possible but it would be a separate transaction.

Why?

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Its possible but it would be a separate transaction. Its also very possible he won't as he's talking about giving the club a 25 year lease if he sells and about him being able to ensure the ground doesn't get sold off if the club hits financial problems.

You're speculating again. If he got the right offer from the right people the two could easily go hand in hand. He says as much in your link.

chiefdave · May 6, 2017

singers_pore said:
Why?

Because they are two different companies. The report is a bid has been made for the football club not any holding company that consists of the club and ground.

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Because they are two different companies. The report is a bid has been made for the football club not any holding company that consists of the club and ground.

No it isn't. Don has already given you an extract from the interview the bidder has done with the local paper after making the bid. Link here 20 questions on why Synectics Solutions wants to buy Port Vale FC

They're bidding for both, they're very clear on that in the article. That is the part Don quoted and what prompted you to say that the ground was owned by someone else who has no intention of selling, which also isn't the case.

singers_pore · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Because they are two different companies. The report is a bid has been made for the football club not any holding company that consists of the club and ground.

So you think that an acquirer cannot buy two companies in one single transaction. Are you serious or are you trolling us?

chiefdave · May 6, 2017

singers_pore said:
So you think that an acquirer cannot buy two companies in one single transaction. Are you serious or are you trolling us?

Of course they can, so how much are they proposing to pay Smurfwaite for the Port Vale FC Ltd and how much are they offering for Alchemy Land Ltd?

Surely the ground on its own is worth more than £1.25m.

Grendel · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Of course they can, so how much are they proposing to pay Smurfwaite for the Port Vale FC Ltd and how much are they offering for Alchemy Land Ltd?

Surely the ground on its own is worth more than £1.25m.

Yes it is. A year ago it was reported he'd want at least £4.5 million for the club.

The ground he has already also said he would probably retain and has an agreement that the club can operate off a 25 year lease as a separate entity.

singers_pore · May 6, 2017

chiefdave said:
Of course they can, so how much are they proposing to pay Smurfwaite for the Port Vale FC Ltd and how much are they offering for Alchemy Land Ltd?

Surely the ground on its own is worth more than £1.25m.

You claimed that two companies cannot be acquired in one single transaction. I was simply pointing out that you were wrong, and now you are trying the old deflection tactic.

I never claimed to know how much the acquirer is paying for either company.

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

Grendel said:
Yes it is. A year ago it was reported he'd want at least £4.5 million for the club.

The ground he has already also said he would probably retain and has an agreement that the club can operate off a 25 year lease as a separate entity.

It was actually for the club and ground Port Vale: Buyer will need more than £4m for club and ground
Another grendull fact.

Astute · May 6, 2017

Grendel said:
Yes it is. A year ago it was reported he'd want at least £4.5 million for the club.

The ground he has already also said he would probably retain and has an agreement that the club can operate off a 25 year lease as a separate entity.

And it has been reported since that he is after less money now as they are worth less.

And he doesn't charge the club rent.

skybluetony176 · May 6, 2017

Astute said:
And it has been reported since that he is after less money now as they are worth less.

And he doesn't charge the club rent.

Also the 25 year lease is a covenant on the site. Nothing to do with Smurthwaite offering anything, he also said he would sell the ground to the right people and said pretty much the same about the club. He's already brushed aside bid's from hedge funds for this reason. He's been quoted multiple times about not letting the club fall into the wrong hands because he feels a sense of responsibility.

Grendel · May 6, 2017

Astute said:
And it has been reported since that he is after less money now as they are worth less.

And he doesn't charge the club rent.

He said he will charge a new company rent. I can't see anywhere he says he'd take less. Where have you seen that? All I see is that he wants to recoup his initial purchase price and the money he had put in.

dongonzalos · May 7, 2017

chiefdave said:
Because they are two different companies. The report is a bid has been made for the football club not any holding company that consists of the club and ground.

Q) Is this bid just for Port Vale FC or does it include the stadium?

A) "IT has to be for both. Every element of Port Vale has to be consolidated. You have to know as a fan that if you are buying a matchday ticket, a shirt, a drink on the concourse or having your party at the club, that all the revenue is going into Port Vale FC. Only by having everything together can we achieve that."

(Sorry Dave not sure you read the reply properly, that I sent to you earlier. Here it is again, the above is a direct quote from the people who submitted the bid. The is a bid according to them for both club and stadium)

Grendel · May 7, 2017

dongonzalos said:
Is this bid just for Port Vale FC or does it include the stadium?
"IT has to be for both. Every element of Port Vale has to be consolidated. You have to know as a fan that if you are buying a matchday ticket, a shirt, a drink on the concourse or having your party at the club, that all the revenue is going into Port Vale FC. Only by having everything together can we achieve that."

Sorty Dave not sure you read the reply I said to you before. The above is a direct quote from the people who submitted the bid. The is a bid according to them for both club and stadium

Then the bid is utterly absurd is it not?

dongonzalos · May 7, 2017

Grendel said:
Then the bid is utterly absurd is it not?

I found it very strange in the same interview. They admit to not knowing the full finances before bidding. Yet they know it is a sound investment.

They said something like they were going to give him back what he has paid for the club, (1.25 million and it would be cash upfront) because despite the club now being worth less because of how he ran it, he still deserves his money back. Do effectively relegation has devalued it so they have bid significantly lesd than they bid previously.

It all does sound a bit bizarre. However they are definitely saying the bid is for both club and stadium. Not what Dave is saying as in just the club.

chiefdave · May 7, 2017

So they are bidding less for the club and the stadium than two other groups have bid just for the club. Can't see that being a winning bid!

Next it will be that they are expecting the loans to be written off as part of that £1.25m as well!

Maybe if they team up with Hoffman they'd be able to afford to buy Sphinx.

Astute · May 7, 2017

chiefdave said:
So they are bidding less for the club and the stadium than two other groups have bid just for the club. Can't see that being a winning bid!

Next it will be that they are expecting the loans to be written off as part of that £1.25m as well!

Maybe if they team up with Hoffman they'd be able to afford to buy Sphinx.

He does seem to care about the club. He doesn't want to sell to a hedge fund. He just wants someone who can take the club forward. Maybe he would sell for a bit less to the right person.

ccfcway · May 7, 2017

chiefdave said:
If season tickets / attendances are down next season the budget will be cut accordingly. If that means another relegation they won't care.

If we get relegated next season with the budget we will have. based on these fans supporting the club in larger numbers than the majority of the league, it will be no-one other than the managers fault

£1.25 m bid for Port Vale (1 Viewer)

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