Ricoh Value - 6.4 million in 2012 (1 Viewer)

Common sense will tell you its worth more than £6.4M.

Nick said:

What are you talking about?

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Dont pretend to be stupid Joy offered less than 5 million for the Ricoh but is willing to spend 25 to 30 million on a new stadium to her getting the Ricoh for 5 to 6 million would be getting it for free

italiahorse said:

Common sense will tell you its worth more than £6.4M.

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So it's £6.4m for you then.

If it was legitimately valued at 6.4 and the council spent 14m of public money on it - well, that don't sound good for them.

Nick said:

So is ACL effectively the lease? So to sell the lease they would be selling ACL?

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To some degree yes...... but things have moved on from a year ago. A valuer would value the worth of the tenants leases that ACL holds (its rent roll). Some were good covenants eg the casino or hotel of good value...others like CCFC were very poor and probably valued at nil. Dont forget the 6.4m is excluding a value of a tenant for the stadium bowl.

However to value ACL you would have to consider the other incomes, how secure those incomes were, how far in to the future those income sources went, etc plus the fixtures and fittings, equipment, etc plus the goodwill.

It is quite likely that for security purposes for Yorkshire Bank, given the situation at the time that the value of fixed assets were heavily discounted and the value of any goodwill given no value at all, the other income sources would be discounted too but dont forget CCFC effectively sold those rights in 2003 for £6m, those incomes are much greater now.

Unless we saw the report in full it is difficult to tell but things have moved on from December 2012 and the exhibition/conference/event side of the business is much more robust

asb said:

The problem is that there are more parts to buy in the Ricoh which are not being discussed. It is being made out as if it as simple as a house sale.

It is not that clear which part that valuation refered too. The only solution is a new valuation based on a purchase of all parts. I am betting it will be more than £6.4m

Then again lets all pretend it is as simple as Mr Reid makes out. That way there is still a flicker of hope that they could do a deal.

With your house Nick it would be like me having your garden valued and then offering that as the price of the house.

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it is pretty simple from a footballing point off view. the club need to own the leasehold and therefore ACL to have full access to all revenue streams to assist with FFP and give the club the best possible chance financially.

sh1tsu have hoodwinked lots of people into thinking we need the freehold. we dont, they do. this is what joy needs to get a return on her investment to keep her investers happy and remember joy only cares about her investors outside of her family. not paying, or non-paying customers as it would be of her "beloved football club"

Nick said:

Did Haskell make a bid for CCFC to SISU? Did Hoffman actually make a serious bid also?

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No he bid to the administrator. There was nothing to stop sisu withdrawing their bid once they new people wanted the club.

Define serious bid.

Just as a for instance many properties that are let are valued as a multiple of the annual rents it receives ...... multiples can be 10 or 12 times. We know at the time CCFC were paying 1.3m but how much were the casino and hotel paying? say it was 500k (i would guess it was more) . that would have put rent roll at 1.8m. On that basis then market value would appear to be much more than 6.4m if all the tenants were paying properly

whether the rents were at proper value is a different question and is not the point i am making

Grendel said:

Packet of crisps?

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Not Walkers.

Broken Hearted Sky Blue said:

Dont pretend to be stupid Joy offered less than 5 million for the Ricoh but is willing to spend 25 to 30 million on a new stadium to her getting the Ricoh for 5 to 6 million would be getting it for free

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Just to be clear

The valuation was for Yorkshire Bank to value its security. The security held was a charge over the assets (inc lease of the site) ACL owned. That was valued at 6.4m

It would not have been a valuation of the freehold that is owned by CCC and not charged as i understand it. Therefore the statement "the Ricoh is worth 6.4m" is going to be wide of the mark.

ACL was worth 6.4m for Yorkshire bank security purposes (without including the stadium element being let) in december 2012 - is more accurate

oldskyblue58 said:

Just as a for instance many properties that are let are valued as a multiple of the annual rents it receives ...... multiples can be 10 or 12 times. We know at the time CCFC were paying 1.3m but how much were the casino and hotel paying? say it was 500k (i would guess it was more) . that would have put rent roll at 1.8m. On that basis then market value would appear to be much more than 6.4m if all the tenants were paying properly

whether the rents were at proper value is a different question and is not the point i am making

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So if total rents were £640K per year at the time less CCFC that puts the value at £6.4M.
If CCFC were paying the rent at £1.4M that would add another £14M.

Summing up
When SISU stopped paying the rent it dropped from £20.4M to £6.4M

Nick said:

Ricoh was worth £6.4m late 2012 based on no CCFC rent. Council court papers reveal a council report had stated this according to Les Reid.

What would it be worth now? What should SISU offer if this is true?

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I can't see all the posts so sorry if this has already been said.

At about that time Sisu thought the stadium was worth no more than £5m and maybe closer to nothing, IIRC.

I have some information on the value of the freehold after a freedom of information request I sent to the Council. My questions are in italics, followed by answers from the council.

The response was sent on 12th November

1. How much is the freehold of the Ricoh valued at for the purposes of the Council ‘Accounts’.

No formal valuation of the freehold has been undertaken.

1. Has the Council received any offers for the purchase of the Ricoh Freehold? Please provide amounts, dates of offer, name of organisation making any offers. Please provide as much information as you can, rather than just stating ‘commercially sensitive’

No offers for the freehold have been made.


'Under the Re-Use of Public Sector Information 2005 Regulations you are free to use this information for your own use or for the purposes of news reporting.'

I'm providing this information on here in the interests of news reporting.

Nick said:

I wouldn't actually be getting it for free would it if they offered actual money? It would be getting it for what it is "worth"?

"" means as of this valuation which may have changed after reading OSB's posts.

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Again. Remember we're talking about the value if the lease ACL hold not of the freehold the council hold. The two are simply not comparable and the only reasons for Les to write this piece are ignorance or willful intent to muddy the waters in sales negotiations. I'll be generous and assume the first.

kingharvest said:

If it was legitimately valued at 6.4 and the council spent 14m of public money on it - well, that don't sound good for them.

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No. The value of the lease on ACLs books is £6.4m not the value of ACL OR The Ricoh as a whole.

The council SPENT NO PUBLIC MONEY on this. They used their position and credit rating to get low interest access to finance. They then loaned this money AT A HIGHER RATE to ACL. Thus (assuming ACL stay solvent) making the taxpayers a profit. Of course were ACL to go bust then the several million that the taxpayers invested at the start of the project would have been lost, as would have any economic benefit to the city goin forward.

(Sorry for caps for emphasis, options are limited on mobile)

Nick said:

No I understand that they can't buy freehold based on a "value" of the lease. I still think get 3 valuations independently and average them.

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Sorry if I misunderstood I just felt there was a lot of confusion in the thread and people were comparing the bid for the freehold (<£5m) and the cost of a new ground (£20-30m) to this price (£6.4m), which is simply pointless.

Just what do Sisu expect to get out of this? A forced sale? If that happens they could sell it to anyone and I bet it won't be Sisu.

It's clearly worth more than the valuation OSB said so.

Bless your cotton socks grendel

super les reid has tweeted the value so what are we waiting for sisu?!?!

I can see why they are wasting their time with this JR when all thry have to do is pay £6.4 million. Les reid said so.

If it is only worth £6.4m then there isn't much point in the council selling is there?

Might as well wait until the market picks up. As Tim says you don't sell at the bottom of the cycle.

I saw "according to Les Reid" and stopped reading. Might as well have Joy writing for the CT as an "impartial journalist". His "of taxpayers money" is a typical example: yes, money that has been working making money for the tax-payers! He really is a chode.

Nick said:

Did Haskell make a bid for CCFC to SISU? Did Hoffman actually make a serious bid also?

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If they'd taken Hoffman's offer, they'd be in a lot less debt than they are now, wouldn't they? And we'd be playing in Coventry!

Personally I don't give a toss what the Ricoh is worth. £6m or £60 it doesn't matter because the football club doesn't need the freehold. It's SISU that wants the freehold for non football motives. Motives that will almost certainly saddle the football club with massive debts for years to come. Why are so may people so keen to find a way of selling the freehold to SISU? I don't get it at all.

Just because Ms Seppala says 'freehold or nothing' everyone seems to go along with it.

The football club needs a competitive rental deal structured to give it access to as much additional revenue as possible.

That's what I'd like AL to offer and I'd like her make it public knowledge. Then when Seppala rejects it all she has to do is find £20m for a new cowshed.

DazzleTommyDazzle said:

If the Ricoh is worth anything anywhere near £6.4m, why would Otium be planning to build a much smaller ground for a reported £25m?

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Because nobody will sell them the Ricoh for a figure close to £6.4m?

Can we not get 15,000 fans to pay £426.66 each and pay for the stadium. Price includes a season ticket

Grendel said:

Packet of crisps?

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See knew you work for SISU!
How else do you know what Joy offered the other day? That was confidential!

shmmeee said:

The council SPENT NO PUBLIC MONEY on this. They used their position and credit rating to get low interest access to finance. They then loaned this money AT A HIGHER RATE to ACL. Thus (assuming ACL stay solvent) making the taxpayers a profit.

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That is something often quoted, but have never as yet(unless i missed it somewhere), seen anything confirmed as such about where the money came from, what rates were paid for it, and what rate is being charged ACL for it.

If you could post a link or something would be much appreciated.

Nonleagueherewecome said:

I saw "according to Les Reid" and stopped reading. Might as well have Joy writing for the CT as an "impartial journalist". His "of taxpayers money" is a typical example: yes, money that has been working making money for the tax-payers! He really is a chode.

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Must be shortly due his monthly update about the Brandon site, perhaps then he can give us his considered opinion of the Bees side already virtually announced for next season. At least then he would then be reporting real news, rather than the monthly fantasy of a 'promised' new stadium. Maybe when the Bees announced Fisher will be definitely be at Brandon next year, he actually thought it would be Tim, not the Californian speedster Ryan Fisher.

Nick said:

If it is only worth £6.4m then doesn't it mean they are in negative equity? I wonder who has given the figure of what it is worth.

If the council do value it at £6.4m then why should SISU pay off the mortgage for them if it isn't worth that?

If I had a house worth 100,000 but my mortgage was for 2.4 million it doesn't mean the house is worth 2.4 million does it?

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I would think your best plan would be to sue whoever conned you into taking the mortgage in the first place.

Grendel said:

It's clearly worth more than the valuation OSB said so.

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And everyone listens to Grendull and not OSB.......don't they?

Shall we have a vote on who is full of shit out of the two of them? Or even try and work out who talks sense?

Astute said:

And everyone listens to Grendull and not OSB.......don't they?

Shall we have a vote on who is full of shit out of the two of them? Or even try and work out who talks sense?

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OSB makes a lot of sense. A lot of the time. What's your point?