Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
No one is blaming Farage or Tate there’s personal responsibility too but that cuts every way
Irish Riots (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Grendel
- Start date
Amazing to see the different reactions in here compared to LA protestors
People set fire to some cars in LA:
'Lock these appalling criminals up, send in the national guard'
People set fire to a leisure centre in Ballymena:
'Well what do you expect, people don't like immigration'
People set fire to some cars in LA:
'Lock these appalling criminals up, send in the national guard'
People set fire to a leisure centre in Ballymena:
'Well what do you expect, people don't like immigration'
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
This is scaremongering of a different kind.
Net migration is 476k and not everyone is working in the NHS or public services. This has become a self-fulfilling prophecy because if your population increases (driven by net migration), you need more people to work in public services - it’s a cycle. Adding to this, successive governments have cut funding for trainee doctors, social care workers and so on has left the NHS increasingly reliant on importing its workforce from abroad. In fact, this government has done the same in the Spending Review. Which, ironically, keeps wages lower and the vicious cycle of UK trained healthcare professionals leaving for lucrative jobs abroad (in mostly mixed/privatised systems).
You also have a mounting welfare bill where the households with one foreign-bled recipient has doubled in 3 years (up from 0.5bn to just under 1bn). This figure will only rise with the ‘Boriswave’ migrants being eligible for Indefinite Leave to Remain (i.e. access to welfare).
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Far from it Pete. The last thing this country needs is rioting.
Let’s be honest, your post that I replied to originally, implies that these riots are happening because of people (Reform/Farage) stoking up hatred.
We’ve spoken on this topic before, there’s a reason traditionally centre-left political parties are getting battered by populist anti-immigration parties. It’s not because they’ve been manipulated, it’s because those parties address their legitimate concerns.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Or because these parties are pandering to them, thus making those people think they're right because someone on the political spectrum is repeating what they say.
Those parties then exacerbate those fears with sensationalist reporting and it becomes a vicious circle.
There is a reason that populist parties resonate most with the least educated.
mmttww
Well-Known Member
You're getting wisdom and cynicism mixed up again.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
oh dear
This commitment to the Four Yorkshiremen bit is getting more and more bizarre. You apparently have some magic insight into anti-immigrant riots because you lived on an estate 40 years ago?
Fucking hell
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
It’s often the poorest in society that has to deal with the consequences of mass, low skilled immigration. This is something the traditional trade unionist left actually understood.
Border control is not a left-right issue. It’s been made a one because it’s only the political Right in the UK that has an interest in border control.
Or does it, I'm not so sure?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I was blaming the northern Irish politician who told the mob bout the leisure centre
Northants Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I'm genuinely council estate born and bred, grew up with hand me downs/no car/no holidays etc then my first address at 18 when I moved away to Cov was Foleshill right slap bang in a migrant community
And I'll tell you right now if Farage, Tice, Griffin, Tyndall or any other of these 2 faced opportunistic cunts fetched up at mine theyd get both barrels.
So can we stop with this condescending attitude that anyone actually grafting for a living and earning under £40k is magically hypnotised by these empty twats. Its insulting
Every one of them...every single one of them is actually desperate for immigration to continue because without it they've lost the main/whole reason for their existence
And I'll tell you right now if Farage, Tice, Griffin, Tyndall or any other of these 2 faced opportunistic cunts fetched up at mine theyd get both barrels.
So can we stop with this condescending attitude that anyone actually grafting for a living and earning under £40k is magically hypnotised by these empty twats. Its insulting
Every one of them...every single one of them is actually desperate for immigration to continue because without it they've lost the main/whole reason for their existence
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Backed up by the stats though.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
What stats are they?
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
Very fucking liberal use of the word “address” there. They identify things people are pissed off with, shout about it, then move on to the next thing. There’s no policy behind any of it.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
Reform’s policies on immigration didn’t lack detail in their 2024. That’s the one policy area there was substance. What ought to be questioned is the plausibility of the policies making the intended impact.
The Tories look like they’ll eventually adopt the Jenrick/Reform policy on leaving the ECHR and turning the boats back to France.
Reform wanted an ‘immigration tax’ by raising employer NI to 20% for foreign workers. This idea was rightly deemed economically illiterate… only for Labour to raise this tax on all workers!
Suppose it’s just like Labour’s policy of ‘smash the gangs’… that always meaningless rhetoric. On the campaign trail in 2024, all Labour did was (rightly) call out the Tories poor record on the issue with next to no policy detail (applies to much of the 2024 manifesto tbf).
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The immigration issue is sweet snake oil to get away from doing things to reverse long term economic decline stemming from the 70s onwards. Big swathes of the country that lost their industries and were told to fend for themselves while the far right seized their chance to give desperate people someone to blame. Regions that lost sources of employment, community cohesion and local pride are turning to charlatans like Farage because he sells an easy solution with a visible scapegoat to a complex problem.Reform’s policies on immigration didn’t lack detail in their 2024. That’s the one policy area there was substance. What ought to be questioned is the plausibility of the policies making the intended impact.
The Tories look like they’ll eventually adopt the Jenrick/Reform policy on leaving the ECHR and turning the boats back to France.
Reform wanted an ‘immigration tax’ by raising employer NI to 20% for foreign workers. This idea was rightly deemed economically illiterate… only for Labour to raise this tax on all workers!
Suppose it’s just like Labour’s policy of ‘smash the gangs’… that always meaningless rhetoric. On the campaign trail in 2024, all Labour did was (rightly) call out the Tories poor record on the issue with next to no policy detail (applies to much of the 2024 manifesto tbf).
The social problems the country has, immigration included, are symptoms not causes in my view. Starmer was given a huge majority and a blank canvas to prove the far right wrong. He has tweaked around the edges and likely will not last beyond this term.
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
Reform’s policies on immigration didn’t lack detail in their 2024. That’s the one policy area there was substance. What ought to be questioned is the plausibility of the policies making the intended impact.
The Tories look like they’ll eventually adopt the Jenrick/Reform policy on leaving the ECHR and turning the boats back to France.
Reform wanted an ‘immigration tax’ by raising employer NI to 20% for foreign workers. This idea was rightly deemed economically illiterate… only for Labour to raise this tax on all workers!
Suppose it’s just like Labour’s policy of ‘smash the gangs’… that always meaningless rhetoric. On the campaign trail in 2024, all Labour did was (rightly) call out the Tories poor record on the issue with next to no policy detail (applies to much of the 2024 manifesto tbf).
And Reform’s immigration ‘policy’ was to stop all immigration except H&SC and students. It made fuck all difference. They’re just shouting close the borders but even they aren’t daft enough to do that.
I’ll give Farage some credit - he’s excellent at smelling which way the wind is blowing whilst also not being silly enough to explicitly nail his colours to the mast a la Nick Griffin.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Well their main policy on immigration was not limiting social care and, I think, students. Which makes up a huge number on the immigration figures. So in fact they would do very little.Reform’s policies on immigration didn’t lack detail in their 2024. That’s the one policy area there was substance. What ought to be questioned is the plausibility of the policies making the intended impact.
The Tories look like they’ll eventually adopt the Jenrick/Reform policy on leaving the ECHR and turning the boats back to France.
Reform wanted an ‘immigration tax’ by raising employer NI to 20% for foreign workers. This idea was rightly deemed economically illiterate… only for Labour to raise this tax on all workers!
Suppose it’s just like Labour’s policy of ‘smash the gangs’… that always meaningless rhetoric. On the campaign trail in 2024, all Labour did was (rightly) call out the Tories poor record on the issue with next to no policy detail (applies to much of the 2024 manifesto tbf).
They had a far tougher stance on benefits and welfare to allow big tax cuts (predominantly to the rich), which would most adversely affect a lot of those people voting for them.
Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
I'd like to instigate that! I was bought up in a convent with dirty fucking priests and sadistic nuns who got their kicks out of beating us little kids with cricket bats or whatever they could lay their hands on! I was just 5 years old when I was incarcerated into that hell hole! I spent the next five years with my siblings, living in total fear! My autobiography covers all of this.
I have no love for any God. I hate all religion and weirdos who represent it!! Fuck 'em!!
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I know I’m sorry
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
You touch on real issues here, 100%.
That said, you then (seemingly) deny the issue of mass immigration altogether which has coincided with flatlining GDP per capita growth and decline in public service provision.
For years, the left has been able to trot out the slogan that the NHS and other public services have been ruthlessly and systematically underfunded by 14 years of Tory rule. The NHS’ budget has risen in line with population growth. Post-Brexit, the composition of migrants has changed from majority EU/EEA migrants to non-EEA migrants who, generally, are lower income and less economically productive. Therefore, welfare spending on ‘foreign born’ residents has rapidly increased (doubled in 3 years) and will only further increase from 2026/27 as the ‘Boriswave’ migrants begin to get indefinite leave to remain (i.e. equal access to benefits).
This is wildly oversimplified. Given the Tories restricted visa access for dependents of migrants, including students and the net migration figure halved from 900-odd thousand to 476k. Which Labour are happy to take the credit for. Half of all international students end up switching to social care visas - does that sound right to you? To anyone, irrespective of ideological persuasion, this is v strange that students would switch to this visa.
Drilling deeper, on health and care visas, the UK issued 146k visa (+ 203k dependents) which is much higher than the vacancies filled. It’s evident that this is being used to enter the wider UK labour market through the back door. It’s clearly been used as a Trojan horse for mass migration. Again, on social care, to raise a concrete example, there was a 1:10 ratio of Zimbabwean visas granted to healthcare/social workers and their dependents. This is not the intended purpose of that visa regime, it’s a ‘bug’ in the system.
Given the poor pay and working conditions in the sector, there will be high turnover and people will leave the jobs. However, if your visa you applied for, and was granted on the basis you’ll work in the health and care sector… if you break those conditions for entry, the penalty ought to be a notice to leave the country/deportation.
As a staunch leftist, I’m surprised you want to prioritise hiring healthcare professionals from abroad rather than raising pay and working conditions of British workers who still make up 77% of the workforce in social care.
To apply this to teaching and perhaps make this relevant to BSB… The treasury is justifying migration of healthcare/social carers because of shortages in the profession whilst simultaneously systematically defunded trainee places in the NHS for such workers. This is something my leftist friends have raised to me as a fundamental issue with the NHS too…
… Applying this to the teaching profession (imo, heavily underpaid and under appreciated), there is a growing shortage of teachers for teaching roles. @Brighton Sky Blue, would it strike you as acceptable if the DoE/treasury cut funding for trainee teachers and essentially outsource this to migrants? Secondly, would this improve the working conditions and pay of the profession? Almost definitely not.
Ultimately, a rational person cannot be anti-immigration in its entirety. If the immigration system ensured the following:
1) Monitor net fiscal contributions of migrants i.e. a Public Benefit Test (PBT)
2) Restrict Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR) to migrants who are a net positive to the treasury (i.e. pay more tax than receive in welfare/public services)
3) Restrict access to welfare and social housing to non-UK citizens
4) Mandate assessments of all working-age non-citizens receiving benefits or living in social housing to undergo PBT evaluation
5) Deport Non-Citizens that Have Been Persistent Fiscal Burdens
6) Ensure judicial resistance does not prevent implementation of the above
Disclaimer: this is summarised from
Douglas Carswell’s article in the Telegraph today but this covers stuff I’ve outlined and more on other threads.
If this was all implemented, immigration would cease to be an issue as was the case in Denmark, where a left wing party implemented reforms to beat off ‘far right’ challenge on this issue.
Personally, I’m sick of talking about immigration but its been the biggest single issue in the country for 2 decades and things will only get more and more toxic until we reform the system.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
LA = protests
Ballymena = riots
Identical scenes reported v differently. Which is why the BBC and other mainstream media outlets haemorrhage credibility.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
This has taken a big swerve away from my point. People have realised that they’re being screwed over, snake oil salesmen like Farage and Douglas Carswell have got them to look in the wrong direction for solutions and who is to blame.
I am with you on progressive policies that would allow us to home grow more of our own workforce while improving pay and conditions to attract British workers in sectors where we rely too much on foreign labour to fill positions.
Mucca Mad Boys
Well-Known Member
I disagree. To use your analogy, the electorate has been voting for lower immigration and haven’t got what they voted for. It’s Farage is selling a product that people actually want on this specific issue. You often cite Denmark on other policy areas and their left wing party of government has adopted policies that is being echoed by the British Right and other members on this forum has called ‘far right’. It’s not, they’ve addressed the Danish people’s concerns on immigration and lo and behold, it’s no longer a key issue for them. In my view, the same would apply here if reasonable reforms were made and demonstrably working as intended.
To state it again, managing your borders and a selective immigration policy is not a ‘left v right’ political discussion.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
So if the NHS budget is increasing in line with population growth and the system is getting worse, this shows that the amount spent per capita is not enough and is therefore being underfunded.
Thanks for agreeing.
Ands if you want to blame flatlining GDP per capita growth on immigration, then focus on the employers who are bringing them in to keep wages down.
Identical scenes? How many families sheltering in a leisure centre were targeted in Los Angeles?