General Election 2019 thread (4 Viewers)

Brighton Sky Blue said:

How can one 'milk' something that requires one to have a long term disability?

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ask someone in Wetherspoons during the week

shmmeee said:

Im just poking you. You do have a habit of criticising Corbyns Labour for things Blair’s Labour did and they’re two different beasts is all.

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I have a habit of criticising them all. But many only comment on certain people I criticise.

The Tories are the Tories. So what they have done in the past follows them. But you don't want it to be the same for Labour.

M&B Stand said:

ask someone in Wetherspoons during the week

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Fair point :smuggrin:

Astute said:

I have a habit of criticising them all. But many only comment on certain people I criticise.

The Tories are the Tories. So what they have done in the past follows them. But you don't want it to be the same for Labour.

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Oh God no. Modern Tories are not like the Cameronites before them, more like the Thatcherites.

There’s some basic stuff that follows, but a lot of the criticisms you level around say privatisation and specifically Blairite.

Astute said:

When was that? Because you have never defended me in any way for saying exactly the same thing.

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Look back at what I’ve written in response to Ian. I didn’t realise that you needed or were bothered about my defence of your points?

shmmeee said:

Oh God no. Modern Tories are not like the Cameronites before them, more like the Thatcherites.

There’s some basic stuff that follows, but a lot of the criticisms you level around say privatisation and specifically Blairite.

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So in this century we have had more years of Labour government than Tory. But we should ignore the Labour years as they will be different but consider what the Tories have always done?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Look back at what I’ve written in response to Ian. I didn’t realise that you needed or were bothered about my defence of your points?

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Shall we look before this?

I remember what you have had a go at me. Look at it recently when you tried to say you had never tried defending Brown. I knew what you had said then also.

Astute said:

So in this century we have had more years of Labour government than Tory. But we should ignore the Labour years as they will be different but consider what the Tories have always done?

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What a random metric.

“In this arbitary period that allows me to say there’s been more Tories and only includes one type of Labour leadership”

I’m saying you can’t ignore how much of a departure from Blairism Corbyn is. For better or worse.

Astute said:

Shall we look before this?

I remember what you have had a go at me. Look at it recently when you tried to say you had never tried defending Brown. I knew what you had said then also.

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Shall we look at any mention of Labour and Brexit in the last 2 years and whether I supported or opposed them?

Ian1779 said:

It’s not been all about Brexit... you can barely find an election story on Brexit despite Boris’ best intentions and his really shit National Express knock off. This election will be about domestic issues... let’s see what the Tories have - because they look pretty bankrupt of ideas to me.

And the polls? Labour were 20+ points behind last time at the start and closed it to 2.

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It didn’t close against the Tory vote though did it? The Tory vote then was probably higher than it will end up with now.

The Lib Dem vote collapsed - it had a wretched discredit leader. Like it or not Swinson is holding her share of the vote and delivering a very anti Corbyn message to her voters. There is at present no evidence it’s shifting.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Shall we look at any mention of Labour and Brexit in the last 2 years and whether I supported or opposed them?

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Yeah go for it.

Grendel said:

It didn’t close against the Tory vote though did it? The Tory vote then was probably higher than it will end up with now.

The Lib Dem vote collapsed - it had a wretched discredit leader. Like it or not Swinson is holding her share of the vote and delivering a very anti Corbyn message to her voters. There is at present no evidence it’s shifting.

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No in the main you are right, the Tory vote held up, and we very much went back to a 2 party position. The LD vote is holding for now... but where will have its impact? The seats where LD can make the most gains are Con/LD marginals - so something will have to give. Labour in my opinion are being stupid about some of the seats they are contesting. If they want to remove the Tories they should give way in places they will never win. It’s narrow minded from Labour and Lib Dems.

M&B Stand said:

ask someone in Wetherspoons during the week

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Two questions-
1- how do you know they're milking the benefit system?
2- Why were you in there?!

Astute said:

Yes it is irrelevant. But it shows that once in power the reality of the situation hits home and the promises are not kept.

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Can't argue with that other than to say I personally have absolutely no trust in the tories whatsoever.

Grendel said:

It didn’t close against the Tory vote though did it? The Tory vote then was probably higher than it will end up with now.

The Lib Dem vote collapsed - it had a wretched discredit leader. Like it or not Swinson is holding her share of the vote and delivering a very anti Corbyn message to her voters. There is at present no evidence it’s shifting.

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Yep. The way it may still play out randomly is if Lib Dems end up effective challengers in Tory seats such as Johnson's. On a micro level they could still stop a Tory majority, on a macro level they do appear to be taking the votes from labour, currently.

clint van damme said:

Can't argue with that other than to say I personally have absolutely no trust in the tories whatsoever.

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I do. I trust them not to keep to what they promise.

shmmeee said:

What a random metric.

“In this arbitary period that allows me to say there’s been more Tories and only includes one type of Labour leadership”

I’m saying you can’t ignore how much of a departure from Blairism Corbyn is. For better or worse.

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So what you are saying is Corbyn is nothing like Bliar so we can trust him.

So who is Boris like? Other than a clown that is.

My point is you say what the Tories are like through past experience. But we shouldn't use past experience with Labour. I say we should consider both. Just like I compare the Lib Dems who got into bed with the Tories. Couldn't trust them not to do it again although they are as far apart as you could get at the moment.

shmmeee said:

What a random metric.

“In this arbitary period that allows me to say there’s been more Tories and only includes one type of Labour leadership”

I’m saying you can’t ignore how much of a departure from Blairism Corbyn is. For better or worse.

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And what did we think of what Bliar was like until we found out what he really was like?

Didn't have a clue he was a Tory in disguise. Didn't have a clue they would kill off decent pensions for all. Didn't have a clue he would take us to war on a lie. He seemed genuine. He seemed to be the person to take Labour forward. We were wrong.

So Corbyn is different. But we won't have a clue unless he gets in what he would do.

clint van damme said:

Two questions-
1- how do you know they're milking the benefit system?
2- Why were you in there?!

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Free beer tokens for saying they are an alcoholic.

Astute said:

And what did we think of what Bliar was like until we found out what he really was like?

Didn't have a clue he was a Tory in disguise. Didn't have a clue they would kill off decent pensions for all. Didn't have a clue he would take us to war on a lie. He seemed genuine. He seemed to be the person to take Labour forward. We were wrong.

So Corbyn is different. But we won't have a clue unless he gets in what he would do.

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I do understand this train of thought. Corbyn’s Labour to me appear to be making some very different noises - which will appeal to some and not everyone.

For me the ideology/manifesto/policies are what I believe is right. If they reverted back to the neo-liberal stance from before I would not stay as a member or a supporter of the Party.

Astute said:

And what did we think of what Bliar was like until we found out what he really was like?

Didn't have a clue he was a Tory in disguise. Didn't have a clue they would kill off decent pensions for all. Didn't have a clue he would take us to war on a lie. He seemed genuine. He seemed to be the person to take Labour forward. We were wrong.

So Corbyn is different. But we won't have a clue unless he gets in what he would do.

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I can be pretty secure that Corbyn wouldn't have made removing Clause Four a central part of a policy re-alignment...

NorthernWisdom said:

I can be pretty secure that Corbyn wouldn't have made removing Clause Four a central part of a policy re-alignment...

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But otherwise?

As you may well have noticed my biggest problem is how much has been promised so far. How will it be paid for? Rob Peter to pay Paul as they say? Raising income tax or reducing tax allowance doesn't raise as much as you would think because of the amount of people on some kind of benefit that work. Cuts elsewhere? It does worry me. I won't be here much longer so not too much of a problem for me. But what about my kids and grandkids?

Would they stop the 25% tax free on pensions? Many need this to start retirement debt free. Others help their children on the housing ladder with it. It keeps others off benefits in retirement.

We have had enough of governments looking at the short term on how to raise money. It hits us long term. After every GE the numbers get looked at in fine detail. Then we find out the hidden facts. Then we have to suffer it.

Astute said:

But otherwise?

As you may well have noticed my biggest problem is how much has been promised so far. How will it be paid for? Rob Peter to pay Paul as they say? Raising income tax or reducing tax allowance doesn't raise as much as you would think because of the amount of people on some kind of benefit that work. Cuts elsewhere? It does worry me. I won't be here much longer so not too much of a problem for me. But what about my kids and grandkids?

Would they stop the 25% tax free on pensions? Many need this to start retirement debt free. Others help their children on the housing ladder with it. It keeps others off benefits in retirement.

We have had enough of governments looking at the short term on how to raise money. It hits us long term. After every GE the numbers get looked at in fine detail. Then we find out the hidden facts. Then we have to suffer it.

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Working in education I’m given the choice between a party that has made my profession suffer for a decade or a party that will take it seriously. Unfortunately if the insane private school idea becomes policy I cannot support it. Yet we are in a 2 party system.

shmmeee said:

Why would that happen and why wouldn’t we opt out?

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Because a Federal Europe with so-called 'single-market' and 28 different health systems and individual opt-outs is a nonsense and you know it.

I see Boris has had the ultimate endorsement today, from Tommy Robinson.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Working in education I’m given the choice between a party that has made my profession suffer for a decade or a party that will take it seriously. Unfortunately if the insane private school idea becomes policy I cannot support it. Yet we are in a 2 party system.

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I don’t agree with the private school policy at all other than either removing their VAT privilege, or giving it to all state schools.

Police investigating claims from Farage that some of his party were offered peerages to stand down in key constituencies.

General election: Met Police assessing electoral fraud claims after Farage says senior Brexit Party figures offered peerages to step aside

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Police investigating claims from Farage that some of his party were offered peerages to stand down in key constituencies.

General election: Met Police assessing electoral fraud claims after Farage says senior Brexit Party figures offered peerages to step aside

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Interesting it's Farage himself making these claims (and Widdicombe, too, it seems!)

NorthernWisdom said:

Interesting it's Farage himself making these claims (and Widdicombe, too, it seems!)

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It would be a very strange thing to claim without a good reason. Not as though making absurd lies is beyond him...

This story just won’t die, sounding like it might blow up again this week as she’s in the country answering questions with the Department of Media, Sports and Culture Boris Johnson 'cast Jennifer Arcuri aside "like one night stand" after affair'

Thought this was interesting... a polling companies prediction of turnout by age group. I think it’s bollocks personally.

Ian1779 said:

No in the main you are right, the Tory vote held up, and we very much went back to a 2 party position. The LD vote is holding for now... but where will have its impact? The seats where LD can make the most gains are Con/LD marginals - so something will have to give. Labour in my opinion are being stupid about some of the seats they are contesting. If they want to remove the Tories they should give way in places they will never win. It’s narrow minded from Labour and Lib Dems.

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I think that’s quite a naive view. Same as Tories/BXP, it’s have to be the smaller party stepping down unilaterally. Labour not running in every seat would be a massive open goal for the Tories to aim at, and would lead to all the Corbynphobics dropping the Lib Dem’s and voting Tory it not voting.

Best we can hope for is what the Leave side have done and the smaller parties see sense and unilaterally step down where it makes sense. Neither party of government will ever step down for a smaller party. It’s political suicide and the people asking for it know that. Lib Dem’s are no friends of Labour, they’ll have to decide if they want to stop Brexit more than they want to hurt Labour.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Working in education I’m given the choice between a party that has made my profession suffer for a decade or a party that will take it seriously. Unfortunately if the insane private school idea becomes policy I cannot support it. Yet we are in a 2 party system.

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Private schools shouldn’t exist. Fight me.

shmmeee said:

I think that’s quite a naive view. Same as Tories/BXP, it’s have to be the smaller party stepping down unilaterally. Labour not running in every seat would be a massive open goal for the Tories to aim at, and would lead to all the Corbynphobics dropping the Lib Dem’s and voting Tory it not voting.

Best we can hope for is what the Leave side have done and the smaller parties see sense and unilaterally step down where it makes sense. Neither party of government will ever step down for a smaller party. It’s political suicide and the people asking for it know that. Lib Dem’s are no friends of Labour, they’ll have to decide if they want to stop Brexit more than they want to hurt Labour.

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OK I see your point... but to expect smaller parties to give way you need to build some goodwill. For example - why would Labour run in Caroline Lucas’ seat - Labour won’t win, and standing aside is a positive gesture where they will reciprocate in turn at a far greater rate.