General Election 2019 thread (1 Viewer)

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Last year I was opposed to another referendum and criticised the likes of Lucas who were clearly trying to cancel the thing before negotiations had even finished. Throughout this year though it has seemed like the best way to end the uncertainty especially after deals continued to get rejected and Parliament had proved itself incapable. Yes I personally think leaving is a mistake but we could have ended the uncertainty before now with a second vote.

We have now a referendum by proxy which will give a green light for all kinds of crap to be included in party manifestos.

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I agree, to an extent. However once all parties nail thier flag firmly to the relevant mast on Brexit (anyone pretending that it is not the most significant issue in this GE is deluded imo) then we can all vote accordingly.

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shmmeee said:

Yeah I’m not arguing for a Dutch system (though I hear good things, that person is not at all a pensioner), I would be fairly agnostic on health funding if I thought for one second we could avoid the US shitshow. But the modern Tory party are drooling Americaphiles so that’ll never happen.

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Britain won't necessarily have a choice in the matter as long as it remains in the EU. I would eventually expect the whole of the EU to adopt a single healthcare system and that's more likely to be the so-called 'Bismack model' than the Beveridge system, or possibly a mixture of the two.

SkyblueBazza said:

I agree, to an extent. However once all parties nail thier flag firmly to the relevant mast on Brexit (anyone pretending that it is not the most significant issue in this GE is deluded imo) then we can all vote accordingly.

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GEs should be about domestic politics first and foremost. This proxy referendum is a crock of shit

SBAndy said:

A third is a rather arbitrary figure, I’d be surprised if the percentage is in double figures in practice. Though I’d be all for DWP reform; I spent a short amount of time signing on when I left university before I got a job and the expectation is you apply for 3 jobs a week. I applied for 35 in the first week. 3 is a bit of a joke.

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Yes a third is extremely arbitrary & is just based on the perception of other others attending the Jobseekers fortnightly. Just the attire spoke volumes for the attitude.
I came from a fairly senior position, and by seeking found I was applying for about 12 jobs a week around the EU...which to my surprise met with astonished response from the JS staff.
So I can only assume that many do the bare minimum to actually seek gainful employment.

In fairness the happy medium between those 'working to live' & 'living to work' is a very tough one to call

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Brighton Sky Blue said:

GEs should be about domestic politics first and foremost. This proxy referendum is a crock of shit

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Brexit is very much a domestic issue isn't it?

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SkyblueBazza said:

It is definitely a realistic take.

I have been unemployed & spoken with incredulous staff at jobseekers who were amazed at the efforts I went to to find work. Now ok, some aren't capable, some have very limited capacity but just a stab in the dark - a third just cannot be arsed & want to milk the system

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Why did you immediately assume that bringing infrastructure up to the standard required by a modern economy was about giving the undeserving poor a handout?

Your prejudice is shining on this one.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Irrespective of personal views on Corbyn, he has been attacked by remainers for not doing enough to cancel Brexit. He has also been attacked by leavers for trying to obstruct or even revoke Brexit altogether. Would you agree that both can't be right at the same time?

A minority of 48% isn't so much a minority as being almost the same % as those who voted out.

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Kind of been saying this for 3 years.... whilst all the noise about how he’s got Brexit wrong...

Ian1779 said:

Kind of been saying this for 3 years.... whilst all the noise about how he’s got Brexit wrong...

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Demanding a general election which nobody wanted, while negotiations were still on the go? Agreeing to one now with the party 10 points down in the polls and it all being about Brexit? He should have walked a while ago. But it doesn't seem that he will even after he gifts the Tories a clean majority.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Demanding a general election which nobody wanted, while negotiations were still on the go? Agreeing to one now with the party 10 points down in the polls and it all being about Brexit? He should have walked a while ago. But it doesn't seem that he will even after he gifts the Tories a clean majority.

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It’s not been all about Brexit... you can barely find an election story on Brexit despite Boris’ best intentions and his really shit National Express knock off. This election will be about domestic issues... let’s see what the Tories have - because they look pretty bankrupt of ideas to me.

And the polls? Labour were 20+ points behind last time at the start and closed it to 2.

Ian1779 said:

It’s not been all about Brexit... you can barely find an election story on Brexit despite Boris’ best intentions and his really shit National Express knock off. This election will be about domestic issues... let’s see what the Tories have - because they look pretty bankrupt of ideas to me.

And the polls? Labour were 20+ points behind last time at the start and closed it to 2.

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The gap is rising and it is the number one issue by a long distance.

fernandopartridge said:

Why did you immediately assume that bringing infrastructure up to the standard required by a modern economy was about giving the undeserving poor a handout?

Your prejudice is shining on this one.

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Not sure we are on the same wavelength there, I think the masses have access already if you believe the industry data. Not paying for access to it is an entirely different issue

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SBAndy said:

A third is a rather arbitrary figure, I’d be surprised if the percentage is in double figures in practice. Though I’d be all for DWP reform; I spent a short amount of time signing on when I left university before I got a job and the expectation is you apply for 3 jobs a week. I applied for 35 in the first week. 3 is a bit of a joke.

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The number of job applications required from each claimant varies I believe? It can be set higher by the job coach or in the case of say someone over 60 with no hope of ever finding a job it can even be set at zero.

If someone really wants to milk the system they'd apply for ESA and PIP rather than JSA as it pays much more.

dutchman said:

The number of job applications required from each claimant varies I believe? It can be set higher by the job coach or in the case of say someone over 60 with no hope of ever finding a job it can even be set at zero.

If someone really wants to milk the system they'd apply for ESA and PIP rather than JSA as it pays much more.

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How can one 'milk' something that requires one to have a long term disability?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

How can one 'milk' something that requires one to have a long term disability?

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Ask this bloke:
Man who lied he can only walk 9ft is found guilty of benefit fraud | Metro News

dutchman said:

Ask this bloke:
Man who lied he can only walk 9ft is found guilty of benefit fraud | Metro News

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What % of claims are fraudulent?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

What % of claims are fraudulent?

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Nobody knows, if they did they'd stop the fraudulent payments.

It's irrelevant anyway. I didn't say a huge percentage of claims were fraudulent, I said that IF they were fraudulent they were likely to be for the big benefit payments rather than the smaller ones.

dutchman said:

Nobody knows, if they did they'd stop the fraudulent payments.

It's irrelevant anyway. I didn't say a huge percentage of claims were fraudulent, I said that IF they were fraudulent they were likely to be for the big benefit payments rather than the smaller ones.

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According to the figures it's about 4% of the total benefits bill. For PIP I imagine the numbers are even lower because you require a physical assessment even if your condition is lifelong and you have been before.

Again irrelevant to my point that a fraudster will always target a higher paying benefit over a smaller one.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

What % of claims are fraudulent?

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there was a report that about 1.2 billion a year went to fraudulent claims but 1 billion a year was either underpaid or not claimed so net loss 200 million.

Tax evasion costs 4.4 billion a year according to HRMC and tax evasion 2.7 billion but guess which one gets a disproportionate amount of focus?

Astute said:

But that is the point.

How many other countries of the world have a NHS? It costs an absolute fortune to run. But it does the job it was designed for. The problem is that now people live longer. So not only do we depend on the NHS for longer but now we have old age ailments we didn't used to have. Full time care costs a lot of money per person.

Then you get those who think that lifestyle health benefits are a right. Should this be allowed? Some will say yes others no. So the NHS has become a money pit.

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according to the OECD we are 16th in the world for per capita health care spend.
I think that includes public and private but even with private removed we move up the list, (I'm not sure exactly where that pus us), but we still don't make the top ten.

The health care crisis up to people living loner we've touched on on here before but as I said a the time, that deserves its own thread as that is a massive up and coming challenge.

dutchman said:

Most European countries (including mine) have private health insurance:
Healthcare in Europe - Wikipedia

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This is what is ignored. Some just want to look at the costs and bot how they are paid for.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

And yet the costs of our system still compare generally favourably to other developed nations. The Americans pay far more for worse outcomes.

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Who pays? Is it the government or insurance that has to be paid for or even the person having the treatment who doesn't have the insurance?

Astute said:

This is what is ignored. Some just want to look at the costs and bot how they are paid for.

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I'm not ignoring it. But you're mad if you think that's the route the tories want to push us down.
They want the US model and don't care about the deaths and bankruptcies that causes.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Irrespective of personal views on Corbyn, he has been attacked by remainers for not doing enough to cancel Brexit. He has also been attacked by leavers for trying to obstruct or even revoke Brexit altogether. Would you agree that both can't be right at the same time?

A minority of 48% isn't so much a minority as being almost the same % as those who voted out.

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Let's go back.

I am supposed to be biased towards leaving. One reason stated was because of me saying he was dithering on saying we should leave or remain. Some thought it was a good idea (And some still do) to not be outright leave or remain.

Look at the Lib Dems. They were dead and buried before Brexit after getting into bed with the Tories. But they came out as very strong remain. They have taken both Labour and Tory votes. But some will still defend the dithering of Corbyn.

shmmeee said:

We spend less on healthcare than most nations.

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Do we? You haven't got a clue.

Astute said:

Who pays? Is it the government or insurance that has to be paid for or even the person having the treatment who doesn't have the insurance?

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Even studies by the most right wing think tanks over there have found that a single payer system is cheaper than what they have now.

Astute said:

Let's go back.

I am supposed to be biased towards leaving. One reason stated was because of me saying he was dithering on saying we should leave or remain. Some thought it was a good idea (And some still do) to not be outright leave or remain.

Look at the Lib Dems. They were dead and buried before Brexit after getting into bed with the Tories. But they came out as very strong remain. They have taken both Labour and Tory votes. But some will still defend the dithering of Corbyn.

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You will notice that I have been criticising Corbyn for his handling of Brexit for ages. But he cannot simultaneously be obstructing it and trying to cancel it.

Ian1779 said:

Kind of been saying this for 3 years.... whilst all the noise about how he’s got Brexit wrong...

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So in which way has he got it right? Try to give an explanation with each point.

clint van damme said:

I'm not ignoring it. But you're mad if you think that's the route the tories want to push us down.
They want the US model and don't care about the deaths and bankruptcies that causes.

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Easy to say but not prove.

We nearly always have a Tory government. And we still have the NHS.

Astute said:

Easy to say but not prove.

We nearly always have a Tory government. And we still have the NHS.

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at the moment.
There have been several meeting between the tories and private medical and insurance companies and trump let the cat out of the bag, (the look May gave him said it all).
The fact Hancock was unaware of the meetings even though he is health minister would almost make you think they put such a clueless idiot in that position intentionally so they could carry on behind his back.

Astute said:

Easy to say but not prove.

We nearly always have a Tory government. And we still have the NHS.

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They know they would never get away with directly dismantling it. Easier to underfund it, have it do poorly and then get a consensus for privatisation. The process for doing that in education is nearly finished.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Even studies by the most right wing think tanks over there have found that a single payer system is cheaper than what they have now.

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That isn't what was said that you have replied to.

All systems have the good and bad. We have one of the best systems in the world but it is very expensive to run and pay for.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

They know they would never get away with directly dismantling it. Easier to underfund it, have it do poorly and then get a consensus for privatisation. The process for doing that in education is nearly finished.

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defund, render unfit for purpose, privatise. The oldest trick in the neo liberal book.

Astute said:

Easy to say but not prove.

We nearly always have a Tory government. And we still have the NHS.

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Well yup, but since Thatcherism we have increasingly gone down the privatisation route.

If it's not nailed down the Tories usually want to privatise it.

And then we also have Trump who thinks everything is for sale and even thought he could buy Greenland.

Astute said:

That isn't what was said that you have replied to.

All systems have the good and bad. We have one of the best systems in the world but it is very expensive to run and pay for.

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Compared to the other developed nations we are cheaper or on par. Compared to a free market system we are much cheaper.

Healthcare is expensive if you want to cover everyone. But any sane society does.