SBT vote on the Boris Johnson withdrawal agreement..... (1 Viewer)

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Do you vote in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement presented by Boris Johnson?

  • Total voters
    33
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
NorthernWisdom said:
You deserve the like just for this ;) It's such a complicated decision, it's just not possible to boil down to a simple yes/no. It's why we elect politicians, to debate the things endlessly and come up with the 'right' decision.

Well, in theory, at least(!)
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so you agree it’s more a policy issue they should have in a manifesto?
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
NorthernWisdom said:
The massively stupid thing we did was invoke Article 50 straight away. I have no idea why all politicians hurtled towards this as a good idea! Would have been far better if we'd got some kind of coherent strategy before starting negotiations, that took on board a general consensus, and *then* seen what deal, if any, was out there for us.
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It seems it was more important for people to see us making the first step towards leaving than actually thinking about what we were doing even if that extended the time frame.
Same as now, being able to say we've left the EU seems more important than any tangible benefit.
Even in the last week I've asked for a couple of arch leavers to tell me the benefits and not recieved anything approaching a coherent answer.
I've gotta theory and it's a bit of a rant so I won't bother today!!
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
CCFCSteve said:
I was responding (factually) to what people mean by the ‘taking back control of our money comment’.

We obviously get benefits, however, if you’re asking, do I think we should have been second/third largest net contributor....probably not. We’ve always been on the periphery of the union.
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Other than geographically on what planet have we been at the periphery? We’re a major player that punches well above our weight.
 
C

CCFCSteve

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Other than geographically on what planet have we been at the periphery? We’re a major player that punches well above our weight.
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Chill out shmmeee...periphery of the Union, as explained. They’ve been pulling closer together over the years and we’ve edged away. A majority of the EU want a different type of union to what we do (or a majority of us do !)
 
Astute

Astute

Well-Known Member
NorthernWisdom said:
You deserve the like just for this ;) It's such a complicated decision, it's just not possible to boil down to a simple yes/no. It's why we elect politicians, to debate the things endlessly and come up with the 'right' decision.

Well, in theory, at least(!)
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I fully agree.

But can't be bothered to make a proper reply. Had a busy last day with family before my 800 odd mile journey home in the morning. But will get back to you eventually.
 
Houchens Head

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Out means out. I won't be changing my mind. We were fine before we were conned into joining in the early 70's and we'll be fine afterwards. I can't see what people are so scared of? Look at all of the countries that aren't in the EU. They're quite happy!
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
But we were also fine in as well....We'd have been fine had we voted to stay in as well.
 
Houchens Head

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
But we were also fine in as well....We'd have been fine had we voted to stay in as well.
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Sorry,can't agree. We are basically ruled and governed by Brussels. EU laws are everywhere! Our farming and fishing rights suffer badly. You can't fart without breaking some stupid EU law or other! Let's live by our OWN rules and laws!
 
Ian1779

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Houchens Head said:
Sorry,can't agree. We are basically ruled and governed by Brussels. EU laws are everywhere! Our farming and fishing rights suffer badly. You can't fart without breaking some stupid EU law or other! Let's live by our OWN rules and laws!
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So what EU rules specifically we’re having a personally detrimental effect on your life?
I’d love just one person to answer this question.
 
shmmeee

shmmeee

Well-Known Member
Houchens Head said:
Sorry,can't agree. We are basically ruled and governed by Brussels. EU laws are everywhere! Our farming and fishing rights suffer badly. You can't fart without breaking some stupid EU law or other! Let's live by our OWN rules and laws!
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Which rule has the UK voted against and been defeated that you don’t like?
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
shmmeee said:
Which rule has the UK voted against and been defeated that you don’t like?
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a stupid loaded question

here’s a law I don’t like

the European Arrest Warrant
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Grendel said:
a stupid loaded question

here’s a law I don’t like

the European Arrest Warrant
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That seems a very odd choice. So you'd prefer it if someone committing a crime in this country could just run off abroad? Or have you done things that put you in danger of it....?
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
That seems a very odd choice. So you'd prefer it if someone committing a crime in this country could just run off abroad? Or have you done things that put you in danger of it....?
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oddly I take the view of many human rights advocates who oppose it.
 
Grendel

Grendel

Well-Known Member
The other reason I mentioned it was of course that parliament never actually voted on it
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Houchens Head said:
Sorry,can't agree. We are basically ruled and governed by Brussels. EU laws are everywhere! Our farming and fishing rights suffer badly. You can't fart without breaking some stupid EU law or other! Let's live by our OWN rules and laws!
Click to expand...

I will agree I'm no fan of the CAP or CFP. But that is not just due to the support for things like French wine and cheese production that no-one wants to buy but are guaranteed a minimum price for. But also because wealthy land owners in this country are paid vast sums to do nothing with land or turn it into things like golf courses. The Queen gets the most money from the EU in this respect.

Also many of those wanting to exit the EU like JRM and Farage and their wealthy banker backers are of that opinion because the EU wants more regulation of financial services. They want it deregulated, something which history tells you will ultimately lead to a crash and recession because of the greed inherent in that sector.

Other want it to benefit business, not people. They want to privatise the NHS so the emphasis moves from care to profit. Others want food standards reducing to cut costs for companies even though doctors and health experts have warned against it. They want red tape cutting and less stringent standards in construction.

There are also many aspects of EU law that we can do things with but choose not to. We chose not to monitor immigration with EU expansion. We could have if we wanted to - other EU countries did.
 
Houchens Head

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Ian1779 said:
So what EU rules specifically we’re having a personally detrimental effect on your life?
I’d love just one person to answer this question.
Click to expand...
I've since moved from the Isle of Wight, but while I was there, I could fish from any pierhead quite happily. 3 years ago an EU ruling was brought into force to say that landed bass size had now increased from 16" to 18". Doesn't sound a lot but when you're constantly putting good fish back because of the EU, it pissed off a lot of locals. Then 2 years ago, the EU brought in yet another, newer ruling stating that all bass landed must be 18" and only ONE bass per angler would be allowed to be taken from the water! Set that against what the French, Spanish and God knows who's trawlers were helping themselves to UK waters fish!
I know land-lubbers won't give a shit, but this is just ONE EU rule we have to abide by as members! So, fuck 'em! Let's get OUT!!!!!
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
The UK have been a major part of bringing in fishing quotas and no-take zones to ensure sustainability of fish stocks. The fishing industry in Britain was on its knees long before the EU because we massively over-fished our waters and took too many fish before they'd reached maturity and so there was far reduced spawning harming stocks into the future.

There was a piece on Springwatch where they'd introduced a no take zone around an island around Scotland which the fish spawned in. They were not instructed to do so by the EU or forced into it by some EU regulation - it was a decision taken at a UK level. Fish stocks increased massively and in a few years fishermen's hauls had increased.

Although I'd expect certain MP's to remove restrictions because they only see the £££ right now of a fish court, there is a very strong advocacy for increasing the number of no-take zones in British waters which would have far more traction if they only had to deal with the UK and the UK fishing fleet

Frankly I'm surprised anglers are permitted to take any fish - it's a sport/hobby. If you want to catch fish to eat them then that's fishing and should be under completely different rules.

Don't think that UK fishermen aren't out there taking stocks from foreign waters either. The CFP has major flaws but many of these no-fishing protections are there for a reason and there is no reason to assume that a UK parliament would remove them.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Houchens Head said:
I've since moved from the Isle of Wight, but while I was there, I could fish from any pierhead quite happily. 3 years ago an EU ruling was brought into force to say that landed bass size had now increased from 16" to 18". Doesn't sound a lot but when you're constantly putting good fish back because of the EU, it pissed off a lot of locals. Then 2 years ago, the EU brought in yet another, newer ruling stating that all bass landed must be 18" and only ONE bass per angler would be allowed to be taken from the water! Set that against what the French, Spanish and God knows who's trawlers were helping themselves to UK waters fish!
I know land-lubbers won't give a shit, but this is just ONE EU rule we have to abide by as members! So, fuck 'em! Let's get OUT!!!!!
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But our fishermen also gain access to waters. Hence events like this French and UK boats clash in 'scallop war'
It’s swings and roundabouts.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
The UK have been a major part of bringing in fishing quotas and no-take zones to ensure sustainability of fish stocks. The fishing industry in Britain was on its knees long before the EU because we massively over-fished our waters and took too many fish before they'd reached maturity and so there was far reduced spawning harming stocks into the future.

There was a piece on Springwatch where they'd introduced a no take zone around an island around Scotland which the fish spawned in. They were not instructed to do so by the EU or forced into it by some EU regulation - it was a decision taken at a UK level. Fish stocks increased massively and in a few years fishermen's hauls had increased.

Although I'd expect certain MP's to remove restrictions because they only see the £££ right now of a fish court, there is a very strong advocacy for increasing the number of no-take zones in British waters which would have far more traction if they only had to deal with the UK and the UK fishing fleet

Frankly I'm surprised anglers are permitted to take any fish - it's a sport/hobby. If you want to catch fish to eat them then that's fishing and should be under completely different rules.

Don't think that UK fishermen aren't out there taking stocks from foreign waters either. The CFP has major flaws but many of these no-fishing protections are there for a reason and there is no reason to assume that a UK parliament would remove them.
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The only water that the British fleet has really lost is to Iceland in the cod wars and that was a nato ruling.
 
chiefdave

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Houchens Head said:
3 years ago an EU ruling was brought into force to say that landed bass size had now increased from 16" to 18". Doesn't sound a lot but when you're constantly putting good fish back because of the EU, it pissed off a lot of locals. Then 2 years ago, the EU brought in yet another, newer ruling stating that all bass landed must be 18" and only ONE bass per angler would be allowed to be taken from the water! Set that against what the French, Spanish and God knows who's trawlers were helping themselves to UK waters fish!
I know land-lubbers won't give a shit, but this is just ONE EU rule we have to abide by as members! So, fuck 'em! Let's get OUT!!!!!
Click to expand...
The EU brought in those restrictions at the request of the UK government due to concerns the stocks were dropping to levels where the ability to repopulate is impacted.

But even if you ignore that do you think if we leave it will just be a free for all where you can do whatever you like? Or is it more likely we will still need a trade deal that covers fisheries and that will likely mean accepting EU quotas meaning the only difference will be that we will no longer have a say in how those quotas are set.
 
skybluetony176

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
chiefdave said:
The EU brought in those restrictions at the request of the UK government due to concerns the stocks were dropping to levels where the ability to repopulate is impacted.

But even if you ignore that do you think if we leave it will just be a free for all where you can do whatever you like? Or is it more likely we will still need a trade deal that covers fisheries and that will likely mean accepting EU quotas meaning the only difference will be that we will no longer have a say in how those quotas are set.
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Even if we don’t whatever we replace it with is going to be heavily influenced by the science of preserving fish stocks. On that basis it will be based on the same science that the EU uses to set fishing quotas so it’s not going to be much different if at all.
 
Houchens Head

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
The UK have been a major part of bringing in fishing quotas and no-take zones to ensure sustainability of fish stocks. The fishing industry in Britain was on its knees long before the EU because we massively over-fished our waters and took too many fish before they'd reached maturity and so there was far reduced spawning harming stocks into the future.

There was a piece on Springwatch where they'd introduced a no take zone around an island around Scotland which the fish spawned in. They were not instructed to do so by the EU or forced into it by some EU regulation - it was a decision taken at a UK level. Fish stocks increased massively and in a few years fishermen's hauls had increased.

Although I'd expect certain MP's to remove restrictions because they only see the £££ right now of a fish court, there is a very strong advocacy for increasing the number of no-take zones in British waters which would have far more traction if they only had to deal with the UK and the UK fishing fleet

Frankly I'm surprised anglers are permitted to take any fish - it's a sport/hobby. If you want to catch fish to eat them then that's fishing and should be under completely different rules.

Don't think that UK fishermen aren't out there taking stocks from foreign waters either. The CFP has major flaws but many of these no-fishing protections are there for a reason and there is no reason to assume that a UK parliament would remove them.
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Fuck me mate! I was on about fishing off the end of a pier for a handful of bass to stick in me freezer, not off on a jolly in a fuckin' great trawler! Nice bit of Googling by the way! Still means fuck all to me!
 
Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Sky_Blue_Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Houchens Head said:
Fuck me mate! I was on about fishing off the end of a pier for a handful of bass to stick in me freezer, not off on a jolly in a fuckin' great trawler! Nice bit of Googling by the way! Still means fuck all to me!
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Most of that info was actually from years back doing GCSE and A-Level geography! Apart from the Springwatch bit - that was because I watched the programme.

I get your only wanting one or two for yourself, but I've always felt the distinction between angling and fishing was that anglers did it for the enjoyment of catching the fish, weighing and photographing and then putting them back. Fishing is for consumption and the two should be considered different by the authorities and have different rules. You were also harming the UK fishing industry by catching your own rather than buying those caught by the professional fishermen who rely on it for their living ;)

Having said that there is apparently a problem with a few predominantly foreign individuals taking fish out of local fishing spots like Coombe Abbey.
 
Houchens Head

Houchens Head

Fairly well known member from Malvern
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Most of that info was actually from years back doing GCSE and A-Level geography! Apart from the Springwatch bit - that was because I watched the programme.

I get your only wanting one or two for yourself, but I've always felt the distinction between angling and fishing was that anglers did it for the enjoyment of catching the fish, weighing and photographing and then putting them back. Fishing is for consumption and the two should be considered different by the authorities and have different rules. You were also harming the UK fishing industry by catching your own rather than buying those caught by the professional fishermen who rely on it for their living ;)

Having said that there is apparently a problem with a few predominantly foreign individuals taking fish out of local fishing spots like Coombe Abbey.
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There is a HUGE difference between coarse angling and sea angling! Totally different equipment for a start! You are obviously not an angler of any kind. Jeez! Even fly fishing is a sport of it's own! You would never catch from a lake or river and want to eat your catch unless it's salmon or trout and they have had limits on them for decades! Oh, and I've never heard of a difference between 'angling' and 'fishing'. They're the same thing.
 
Alan Dugdales Moustache

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
Ian1779 said:
So what EU rules specifically we’re having a personally detrimental effect on your life?
I’d love just one person to answer this question.
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If someone does make a suggestion, you'll likely disagree, so there's no point.
 
Alan Dugdales Moustache

Alan Dugdales Moustache

Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer said:
Most of that info was actually from years back doing GCSE and A-Level geography! Apart from the Springwatch bit - that was because I watched the programme.

I get your only wanting one or two for yourself, but I've always felt the distinction between angling and fishing was that anglers did it for the enjoyment of catching the fish, weighing and photographing and then putting them back. Fishing is for consumption and the two should be considered different by the authorities and have different rules. You were also harming the UK fishing industry by catching your own rather than buying those caught by the professional fishermen who rely on it for their living ;)

Having said that there is apparently a problem with a few predominantly foreign individuals taking fish out of local fishing spots like Coombe Abbey.
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No fishermen I know ever refer to it as "Angling" . It's just fishing. Posh twats call it angling.
There is a big problem with some eastern European people taking fish from our rivers (such as bream) rather than catch and return. They also regularly fish rivers out of season mid March- June and simply plead ignorance. I have been a water bailiff on certain still waters in South Warwickshire and it is a growing problem. Many don't even bother with a licence, again pleading ignorance.
 
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