The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (17 Viewers)

tisza said:

Making a broad assumption that multiple new parties would spring up.
Not likely multiple parties really come to the fore in UK euro elections with the list system.
Would the hard right leave the Tories, would the hard left leave Labour?
One fairly common theme of that type of PR is that govt tends to be pretty central politics.

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3 hard left Labour policies

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Grendel said:

Still not relevant to the question

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You say he would have handled Brexit better when it was clear he totally misplayed it as Brexit secretary. Unfit for purpose

And again a silly argument starts over what would have happened if a leaver had been in charge of leaving. Something that couldn't be proven either way.

But I did state what I thought would happen with a remainer sorting out leaving. My reasoning isn't necessarily right but the result so far has been. Just like my present reasoning why we won't be leaving without a deal. And why I saw a long delay happening.

But when I stated my reasoning as usual it started off more stupid arguments. Yet those who started off the stupid arguments haven't made more comments on the subject now no deal finally looks off the table.

Can we stop the stupid arguments please and actually have a debate?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

You say he would have handled Brexit better when it was clear he totally misplayed it as Brexit secretary. Unfit for purpose

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It is difficult to say who would have done anything better. The vast majority want to stay in the EU. Which remainer would organise us properly to leave? Which leavers would succeed over the vast majority that are remain? And try answering this in a way that isn't someone who wants to remain whatever. Otherwise you get a biased reply.

And yes I know. I try and look at every angle so you call me a remainer for some reason. Yet I am more desperate than most to remain.

Astute said:

It is difficult to say who would have done anything better. The vast majority want to stay in the EU. Which remainer would organise us properly to leave? Which leavers would succeed over the vast majority that are remain? And try answering this in a way that isn't someone who wants to remain whatever. Otherwise you get a biased reply.

And yes I know. I try and look at every angle so you call me a remainer for some reason. Yet I am more desperate than most to remain.

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Last sentence makes no sense. May probably secured the best she could with the tools at her disposal. Polishing the Brexit turd was also beyond the Leave supporters she put in the role.

There is no deal better than staying and no deal will be horrendous. She needed the courage to admit it.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Last sentence makes no sense. May probably secured the best she could with the tools at her disposal. Polishing the Brexit turd was also beyond the Leave supporters she put in the role.

There is no deal better than staying and no deal will be horrendous. She needed the courage to admit it.

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So what was the last sentence and why doesn't it make sense?

May shaped what it looks like with the EU. So she has done the best she has been allowed with the tools at her disposal? If that is the case why have you constantly had a go at the way she has handled the situation?

Grendel said:

No the question was who’d do a better job. The point is either of these two wouldn’t have lost a parliamentary majority which is the biggest single issue regarding negotiating weakness.

Davis is dim and cautious and wouldn’t have called an election. Johnson probably would as he’s a risk taker but would have crushed Corbyn easily - before you start spinning around I’m afraid people don’t mind old Etonians as PM. They also vote on personality - a large majority would have meant any deal posed would easily have sailed through. A small majority and europhile sheep like Soubrey would be less brave.

May created her own mess by running the worst election campaign since foot challenged thatcher

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Didn’t you say May was going to crush Corbyn? Your record on predicting election outcomes are woeful.

If Davis and Boris are so awesome why did neither succeed in leadership campaigns?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Personality of Johnson:

Thinks Muslim women look like letter boxes and burglars

Adulterer

Two face

But does use long words and has posh accent. So yes probably would have kept majority. Would have had to drop the Telegraph doss job though. What great policies would be in the Johnson manifesto?

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Changing policies once elected.

Astute said:

So what was the last sentence and why doesn't it make sense?

May shaped what it looks like with the EU. So she has done the best she has been allowed with the tools at her disposal? If that is the case why have you constantly had a go at the way she has handled the situation?

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You said that despite people assuming you were a remainer you are in fact a remainer. She did the best she could but has wasted months trying to force Parliament to accept it. The correct course of action after being so resoundingly defeated was another vote to break the deadlock.

Grendel said:

No the question was who’d do a better job. The point is either of these two wouldn’t have lost a parliamentary majority which is the biggest single issue regarding negotiating weakness.

Davis is dim and cautious and wouldn’t have called an election. Johnson probably would as he’s a risk taker but would have crushed Corbyn easily - before you start spinning around I’m afraid people don’t mind old Etonians as PM. They also vote on personality - a large majority would have meant any deal posed would easily have sailed through. A small majority and europhile sheep like Soubrey would be less brave.

May created her own mess by running the worst election campaign since foot challenged thatcher

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Oh dear.

So you and others haven't said that I am on the remain side and constantly have a go at what I say?

If she has wasted months then you will agree she hasn't done the best she could. You can't have a go at her for ages saying how much of a bad job she has done then blame it on others when the situation arises. She has been in charge. Brexit has gone in the direction she has taken it in.

bezzer said:

Oh dear.

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Yes our G doesn’t have a great record on this

Astute said:

So you and others haven't said that I am on the remain side and constantly have a go at what I say?

If she has wasted months then you will agree she hasn't done the best she could. You can't have a go at her for ages saying how much of a bad job she has done then blame it on others when the situation arises. She has been in charge. Brexit has gone in the direction she has taken it in.

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OK well it looked like you meant something else.

I can say that she tried to get the best deal and I can also criticise what she did afterwards. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

Astute said:

So you and others haven't said that I am on the remain side and constantly have a go at what I say?

If she has wasted months then you will agree she hasn't done the best she could. You can't have a go at her for ages saying how much of a bad job she has done then blame it on others when the situation arises. She has been in charge. Brexit has gone in the direction she has taken it in.

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What's the latest on the big move?

Brighton Sky Blue said:

OK well it looked like you meant something else.

I can say that she tried to get the best deal and I can also criticise what she did afterwards. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

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That isn't what I have said though.

We have both constantly had a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Just like most on here has. Yet earlier you stated that she has done the best with the tools she has had. If that is the case we have been wrong to have a go at May but should have constantly had a go at her tools.

Astute said:

That isn't what I have said though.

We have both constantly had a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Just like most on here has. Yet earlier you stated that she has done the best with the tools she has had. If that is the case we have been wrong to have a go at May but should have constantly had a go at her tools.

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In trying to get a deal I think she has. I also think the idiots she handed negotiations to didn’t help either. I can say that she has tried to get the best deal she can while criticising what she did after the deal was rejected. We can also criticise the botched snap election.

I am not praising her handling of anything other than a pursuit for a deal that reflects the 52-48 split. But now is the time to let the people break the deadlock.

Sick Boy said:

What's the latest on the big move?

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France?

Still waiting for the final word on this fiasco. If this 1 year extension is agreed and everything stays as it is now it is on. You will be my first invite to stay. I have my eye on 3 riverside properties on one plot. It has over an acre of land with half the boundary being a river. And only about 90 minutes away from airports where we could get to a game

Brighton Sky Blue said:

In trying to get a deal I think she has. I also think the idiots she handed negotiations to didn’t help either. I can say that she has tried to get the best deal she can while criticising what she did after the deal was rejected. We can also criticise the botched snap election.

I am not praising her handling of anything other than a pursuit for a deal that reflects the 52-48 split. But now is the time to let the people break the deadlock.

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Don't you see the contradiction though?

She has either done it badly or has been hampered by the tools given to her. You can't just blame her constantly but then blame the tools when it suits.

Astute said:

Don't you see the contradiction though?

She has either done it badly or has been hampered by the tools given to her. You can't just blame her constantly but then blame the tools when it suits.

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I don’t see one, no. I consider her attempt on the deal to be separate from the snap election and the attempts to force Parliament to accept what she got. This is also all in response to the idea that Davis or Johnson would have done better.

Me saying she got the best deal she could under the circumstances is about as praiseworthy as being the tallest in primary school.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

I don’t see one, no. I consider her attempt on the deal to be separate from the snap election and the attempts to force Parliament to accept what she got. This is also all in response to the idea that Davis or Johnson would have done better.

Me saying she got the best deal she could under the circumstances is about as praiseworthy as being the tallest in primary school.

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So if she has done nothing wrong why have you constantly had a go at her?

Astute said:

So if she has done nothing wrong why have you constantly had a go at her?

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I never said she has done nothing wrong. Trying hard not to make a point about Astute’s comprehension skills is getting difficult.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

I never said she has done nothing wrong. Trying hard not to make a point about Astute’s comprehension skills is getting difficult.

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And here you go again.

You have spent a ling time having a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Then today you blamed it on the tools she had. Now I have comprehensive problems for noticing that you have contradicted yourself.

So try again. Is the way May has dealt with the situation down to the tools available to her like you said earlier?

Astute said:

And here you go again.

You have spent a ling time having a go at the way May has dealt with the situation. Then today you blamed it on the tools she had. Now I have comprehensive problems for noticing that you have contradicted yourself.

So try again. Is the way May has dealt with the situation down to the tools available to her like you said earlier?

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I never said that. Look back through and try again.

Brighton Sky Blue said:

3 hard left Labour policies

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Quite simple that one.
Unable to adopt too many hard left policies atm as majority of Labour just to the left of centre.

In a new multi party system you don't think a harder left party would emerge ( as has done in just about every other PR system) ?
Plenty of internal differences in current Labour Party. Are you honestly saying the whole Labour Party is singing from the same hymn sheet?
A new PR based system could very easily see new several new parties emerge from both major parties. Corbyn already lost 8 MPs to a new "party". You think if more options were available with a realistic chance of MP representation more MPs wouldn't move more freely to new groups?

Few old school Socialist policies - renationalization, sectorial wage bargaining (a sly move to increase Union power), compulsory employee ownership of larger company shares (again a backdoor to increased Union influence), increase the tax on the wealthy, increase inheritance tax burden.

There's a few old school Labour policies. Not a debate about the merits of the policies just which part of the political spectrum they originate from.

tisza said:

Quite simple that one.
Unable to adopt too many hard left policies atm as majority of Labour just to the left of centre.

In a new multi party system you don't think a harder left party would emerge ( as has done in just about every other PR system) ?
Plenty of internal differences in current Labour Party. Are you honestly saying the whole Labour Party is singing from the same hymn sheet?
A new PR based system could very easily see new several new parties emerge from both major parties. Corbyn already lost 8 MPs to a new "party". You think if more options were available with a realistic chance of MP representation more MPs wouldn't move more freely to new groups?

Few old school Socialist policies - renationalization, sectorial wage bargaining (a sly move to increase Union power), compulsory employee ownership of larger company shares (again a backdoor to increased Union influence), increase the tax on the wealthy, increase inheritance tax burden.

There's a few old school Labour policies. Not a debate about the merits of the policies just which part of the political spectrum they originate from.

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Wouldn't qualify any of these as 'hard left' to be honest. Seems that the threshold to be 'hard left' is pretty low which is largely the result of centrist buckling sustained over decades. I do not want too much splintering of the party but seems to me like Team Centrist threw its toys out of the pram when someone came along and told them to stop abstaining on everything and to back progressive policy positions. As Andy Burnham famously said in the leadership contest

'The chancellor is trying to get me to say what I think'

Brighton Sky Blue said:

Wouldn't qualify any of these as 'hard left' to be honest. Seems that the threshold to be 'hard left' is pretty low which is largely the result of centrist buckling sustained over decades. I do not want too much splintering of the party but seems to me like Team Centrist threw its toys out of the pram when someone came along and told them to stop abstaining on everything and to back progressive policy positions. As Andy Burnham famously said in the leadership contest

'The chancellor is trying to get me to say what I think'

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Difference is "hard left" is no longer what it used to mean. In common parlance traditional Socialist policies are seen as being to the "hard left" because in comparison to the rest of the Labour party this is how they are seen.
Can make the same argument about the Tories in that they are far closer to the centre than they have been historically.
Everyone quick to associate ERG as "hard right" of the Tory party but really just "hard Brexiteers". No Deal Brexit doesn't mean the political nature of the UK would have taken a swing to the "hard right".

tisza said:

Can make the same argument about the Tories in that they are far closer to the centre than they have been historically.

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I'd argue there have been plenty of spells where the Tory Party's been left of where Blair's Labour Party ended up!

tisza said:

Difference is "hard left" is no longer what it used to mean. In common parlance traditional Socialist policies are seen as being to the "hard left" because in comparison to the rest of the Labour party this is how they are seen.
Can make the same argument about the Tories in that they are far closer to the centre than they have been historically.
Everyone quick to associate ERG as "hard right" of the Tory party but really just "hard Brexiteers". No Deal Brexit doesn't mean the political nature of the UK would have taken a swing to the "hard right".

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All I do is look at the policies on offer, look at countries they're already implemented in, look at how they poll in the UK and come to the conclusion that to call them 'hard left' and 'extreme' is disingenuous. The 'centre' is actually in line with the 2017 manifesto. Yet the Tories propose a 3 tier education system, above inflation rises in military spending and continued pay cuts for the public sector and they get to be called 'moderate'.

Big problem with the media coverage of politics in this country

NorthernWisdom said:

I'd argue there have been plenty of spells where the Tory Party's been left of where Blair's Labour Party ended up!

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No chance

I see the talks are going well

No change offered in Brexit talks - Labour

skybluetony176 said:

I see the talks are going well

No change offered in Brexit talks - Labour

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May is as disingenuous as the council

fernandopartridge said:

May is as disingenuous as the council

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Tony won’t comment on that

Brighton Sky Blue said:

I never said that. Look back through and try again.

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You never said what?

Let me know what you didn't say and I will show it to you.

Amazed no one commenting on last nights election as an inevitable pre cursor of things to come

Grendel said:

Amazed no one commenting on last nights election as an inevitable pre cursor of things to come

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A Labour victory?