How big a club are we? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Chinny_Hill
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lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Here's a quick question for you? No googling!
Who won the Charity Shield in 1971 and what was so strange about it?
Who won the Charity Shield in 1971 and what was so strange about it?
the_ferret
New Member
It was Leicester I think? Someone at work mentioned it. Can't remember the reason.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Correct! Beat Liverpool 1-0.
Arsenal had won the double, but didn't want to take part, so the FA invited the winners of the First Division(Liverpool) and the winners of the Second Division(Leicester) to take part.
Bizarre.
Still waiting for the second leg of the Anglo-Scottish Cup against St Mirren to be played so we can possibly add to our trophy haul.
Lord_Nampil
Well-Known Member
Leicester won it in 1971 due to Arsenal doing the double they beat Liverpool 1-0! The only other team to have won it with out winning the Fa cup or the League were Brighton in 1910
the_ferret
New Member
Oh dear. I suppose none of this matters in the scheme of things, but the idea we are in the same bracket as Swindon (historically) is just laughable. If that's how low our expectations have fallen, if that is the sort of company that some people think we should be keeping then this club is doomed. I want and expect better than this, but it seems some people think we have found our level.
Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
1994?
The fact that as a club we seem to be so insecure about being a big says everything. I am not sure how many other club's supporters would consider us as one of the countries top 20 clubs.
Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
what do you think our level is then? Considering since we started as a club?
the_ferret
New Member
We ought to be a club that yo-yos between the top 2 divisions. I just feel we should not accept being a 3 tier club. There are clubs who are very happy to be playing in the 3rd tier, we shouldn't be. Leave that to the likes of Bury, Crawley and Stevanage. It is not 'our level', we haven't been there for 50 years and we should be busting a gut to get out of this league.
Norwich, Leicester, Wednesday, Forest, Southampton, Leeds etc didn't consider it their level and they got out of it pretty quick, and their fans expected nothing less. Not saying it should be this season or even next, but under no circumstances should we start believing this is where we belong long term, and if you start putting us in the same bracket as Swindon then that is what you are doing.
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lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Don't anybody is saying that we should be a third-tier club(Though historically we are more likely to be placed there), but probably about mid-way in the second tier, more likely to be a yo-yo club from third to second, not second to third.
Our run in the top flight should be seen more as the anomoly it is, rather than an expectation.
the_ferret
New Member
Not sure what you are basing that on, and we'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.
The only real measure of where we rank in English football has to be attendances really, and historically we average more than Derby, Forest, Norwich, Southampton, Stoke and Ipswich and I don't see anyone suggesting they are all clubs that should yo-yo between the second and third tier, but perhaps you think they should.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I meant the position bit (i.e about 28th) not the 'on par with Swindon' bit.
Sick Boy
Well-Known Member
How can the size of a club be based upon attendances? Are you from Leicester?
You would find it hard to find other fans who don't wear skyblue glasses to agree that we are bigger than all of those clubs.
the_ferret
New Member
The point I was making is that if you try to rank clubs in terms of size, and there is no ideal way of doing that, attendances are probably the best gauge. You may disagree, fine. It is a matter of documented fact that our all time average attendance is higher than all of those clubs. Over the last 10 years we have sunk and clearly as things stand at the moment very few people would rank us above any of them.
neilyboy67
New Member
We didnt arrive on the scene till 1967 that alone puts us on the back foot in terms of tradition.We have 2 things on our side: population of city and 34 years in top flight. However we remain a small provincial club. I was going to say like festa/derby/forest and norwich, but these clubs are leaving us behind lately. Then again small provincial clubs dont take the followings we do ie arsenal. I think we are all potential i just hope we realise it.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It's all relative really-the likes of Stoke and Wigan are simply modern day Covs; they're having their time in the sun right now, and come a few years' time it'll be someone else's turn. The reality is more that there's little to choose stature wise between most of these clubs who realistically won't achieve anything more than (at best) a mid-table top flight finish and it's mainly either extremely good management or a very generous benefactor that gets them there. All we have to make a 'big club' claim is top flight history which ended over 10 years ago-if you were to judge us based on our current league position, attendances, and more recent history, then it can't be justified. Still bigger than the likes of fricking Stevenage, though.
LilleSkyBlue
Well-Known Member
More fans than Derby or Forest?? You really must be talking 'historically' for that to be the case. If only it were true.
Evans020
New Member
To be honest the club have got to try getting in the communities more..get the young up and coming football fans into Coventry instead of man utd ,Liverpool, Chelsea etc.it actually makes me sick seeing kids with Chelsea top on .as 15 years ago you wouldn't see that.can't see the joy of supporting a club you have no intention of watching and think ruud gullit still plays in the starting 11 lol
Astute
Well-Known Member
When I was a kid it was Liverpool that most kids followed. We would normally sell out to them at home. Over 50% of the crowd wanted Liverpool to win, including in the home ends. It is nothing new.
skybluegod
Well-Known Member
newcastle everton sunderland are all above villa now and stoke.
and liverpool are below arsenal spurs city and chelsea now (sadly)
Hamish
New Member
We've spent less time in the third division (22 seasons) than either the second division (29 seasons) or the top flight (34 seasons).
We've actually spent more time in the top flight than in any other league.
Source: http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/england.htm
cloughie
Well-Known Member
he probably is about right with us but he's having a but he's having a laugh through his vile tinted glasses about them
People are talking wigans and other prem teams being above us but with well over 30 odd years top flight that covers the majority of peoples lives I find it hard to understand why others go on about eras when most were not born
If we are relative newcomers regarding the top flight so not worthy, what about Lverpool in this, was it 1965 when they made it
We could go on and on about it regarding any stat that suits the argument we may wish to offer
But agree with summerisle ref;
Willy waving about who's the biggest club means nothing to me anyway, still my club
PUSB
Evans020
New Member
Sunderland and stoke???? Why
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
skybluelee
Well-Known Member
The problem with a lot of locally based Cov fans is that they let their dislike for Villa cloud rational thought. Villa are clearly around the 7th or 8th biggest club in the country based on fan base and trophies. For the first 30-40 years of the football league's existence they were clearly number one.
As for Cov, my guess would be around 30th. As stated by other posters we achieved nothing prior to Jimmy Hill arrived at the club. 34 years in the top flight counts for a lot but not enough to give us any designs on claiming a top 20 place overall.
As for Cov, my guess would be around 30th. As stated by other posters we achieved nothing prior to Jimmy Hill arrived at the club. 34 years in the top flight counts for a lot but not enough to give us any designs on claiming a top 20 place overall.
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
To be fair they may have won something whilst there, and were mostly in the First Division before that with occasional spells in the Second, think won their first Top flight titlein 1900 when we were probably in the Southern League.
Though they could easily head for our 34 years in the top flight without winning it, must be 23 or 24 years since they last did.
Nonleagueherewecome
Well-Known Member
I don't really see how Villa has anything to do with this? I don't really give a crap about Villa: it was never a proper derby-game, and it only became one as there was nobody else vaguely local in the top flight for us to play! And that used to annoy my two Villa supporting mates at the time, as they didn't consider us much of a derby (maybe as much as Walsall is to us?). Before our top flight era, they certainly weren't considered our bitter rivals.
For the first 40 years of the Football League they were clearly number one? Not in the slightest; they were the team of the 1890's, for sure, with 5 title wins, but they didn't win any before that and their next one was in 1981! The reality of their position now in terms of gates, league position and financial power is that they are a lower-midtable top flight team, no way near the top 6. If history was that relevant to league position, PNE and Huddersfield fans must be very frustrated..
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Astute
Well-Known Member
Are we a big club? No
Are we a small club? No
We knew when we were in the top flight we were punching above our weight in many seasons. We had a right to be there though. Things started to go wrong when we tried to become a big club and signing players we couldn't afford. We are now playing against small clubs. Not doing a very good job of it either. When we got relegated there were only three clubs that had been in the top flight longer than us. Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool, and that was only by a few years. We were not the 4th biggest club.
We had a chance of becoming a bigger club in 87 but was not allowed to play in europe. We have never had good seasons whilst in the top flight. This stopped us from getting big crowds. We are a middle size club. A club that should be in the championship with a chance of going up. Since we went down we have not come close. This season has just started. I still fancy us for a top 10 finish. We have the players. Hopefully we have the right manager. Who knows what will happen. We will never be a big club though. SKY have made aure of that. We will ever only be able to spend on a squad what the big clubs can spend on a player. We are below where we should be though.
Are we a small club? No
We knew when we were in the top flight we were punching above our weight in many seasons. We had a right to be there though. Things started to go wrong when we tried to become a big club and signing players we couldn't afford. We are now playing against small clubs. Not doing a very good job of it either. When we got relegated there were only three clubs that had been in the top flight longer than us. Arsenal, Everton and Liverpool, and that was only by a few years. We were not the 4th biggest club.
We had a chance of becoming a bigger club in 87 but was not allowed to play in europe. We have never had good seasons whilst in the top flight. This stopped us from getting big crowds. We are a middle size club. A club that should be in the championship with a chance of going up. Since we went down we have not come close. This season has just started. I still fancy us for a top 10 finish. We have the players. Hopefully we have the right manager. Who knows what will happen. We will never be a big club though. SKY have made aure of that. We will ever only be able to spend on a squad what the big clubs can spend on a player. We are below where we should be though.
skybluelee
Well-Known Member
They won six in that time frame plus six facs plus numerous runners up spots in both comps. Like i said, clearly number one for the first 30-40 years.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Well I have found a "league table" of teams based on all competitions since 1871. Points are acumulated as follows;
Champions Cup Win+15Other European Trophy Win+10League Championship+10FA Cup Win+6League Cup Win+3Second Level Division Win+3Lower Division Win+1Season in top division+2Season in 2nd division+1Bonuses: Super Cup; Club Cup; Double+1
And this is how they rate us;
33rd with 107 points
Villa are 4th with 361 points
Swindon are lower third tier with 25 points
So Villa are in fact 4th and we are a lower to middling Championship Team. This is of course based on footaball since its innaugaration. Most of our points are accumlated since the Second World War and if you only included results from then we would be much higher.
So those who said mid 30's are correct.
Champions Cup Win+15Other European Trophy Win+10League Championship+10FA Cup Win+6League Cup Win+3Second Level Division Win+3Lower Division Win+1Season in top division+2Season in 2nd division+1Bonuses: Super Cup; Club Cup; Double+1
And this is how they rate us;
33rd with 107 points
Villa are 4th with 361 points
Swindon are lower third tier with 25 points
So Villa are in fact 4th and we are a lower to middling Championship Team. This is of course based on footaball since its innaugaration. Most of our points are accumlated since the Second World War and if you only included results from then we would be much higher.
So those who said mid 30's are correct.
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Houchens Head
Fairly well known member from Malvern
I'd say that's just about right Grendel. As for all those who say City had a bigger attendance in the 1960's and 70's - look at the cost! I remember as a young teenager in the late 60's, going up HR and using my meagre pocket money to get in AND still have some left over for sweets etc! You need a bleedin' bank loan to get in nowadays!
the_ferret
New Member
You don't have to go back that far. These things go in cycles. Derby have had a real purple patch recently crowd wise. But like I say, if you look at the figures these things change. Not sure how some people fail to grasp that.
Forest clearly, as twice European Champions and a list of honours that puts ours to shame are a club of bigger stature. In the mid 70s though their support was terrible, in 1973 they averaged less than 10,000 - Notts County were a better supported club. My point all along, if we are talking just about attendances (and its funny how those who use current attendances to talk down the club's size, fidget and squirm if you use them as a long term gauge), is that we are better supported historically than many clubs who currently get more through the gates. People talk all the time about 'fanbase' but have no idea what they are talking about. You often hear people talk about gates in the 90s, but actually, our gates in the 90s compare very well to clubs regarded to be of a similiar stature. Similarly, it annoys me how some people think the club didn't exist before Jimmyy Hill, because actually there are points in our history long before that era that we were very well supported.
If you want to view the figures see here (although these links are a bit flaky and are sometimes down):
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/derc.htm
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/covc.htm
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/notf.htm
the_ferret
New Member
It's totally irrelevant. Last season Derby averaged 10,000 more than they did in 1967, which was about the time we were getting gates up to 40,000 and over. Just a few years before that though, in 1962 (when I am sure it was very cheap) we averaged 10,000, but that increased to 34,000 in just half a dozen years, because of success. Nothing more, nothing less. In fact, our biggest average gate of the last 35 years, was in 2006 when prices peaked (£23 for the cheapest ticket).
Gates fluctuated massively for clubs like ours, Derby, Forest, Norwich etc throughout the 20th century, the only real time when there was a big fall across the board was the 1980s.
Evans is right, a lot of fans under estimate how potentially big we could be. Don't the 34 years in the top division mean anything. The 80s in football were pretty bad in terms of attendances. Every club suffered. Two reasons, unemployment and thugs ruining our game. Fences up everywhere.
I know I'm off the topic a bit here but every thug who has ever caused trouble in and around a football ground shares some of the blame for those 96 deaths at Hillborough. Because of the thugs fences were put up. If the fences hadn't been there those people would still be alive.
I know I'm off the topic a bit here but every thug who has ever caused trouble in and around a football ground shares some of the blame for those 96 deaths at Hillborough. Because of the thugs fences were put up. If the fences hadn't been there those people would still be alive.
