Wasps going into admin & the impact on CCFC (8 Viewers)

[Nick]

Am getting a bad feeling about this. Things seem to me to point to a prepack company rescue where unsecured creditors and the employees are thoroughly screwed by the money people.

we have all seen a company structure used before but there seems to be some sort of pattern here too

- accounts for wasps holdings group filed on time
- accounts for ACL, ACL 2006, IEC not filed, all subsidiaries of wasps holdings. How do you sign the main accounts off if you cant at the same date sign off the subsidiaries. What are we not supposed to see in the subsidiary company figures? Have assets moved?
- The training ground never part of the group assets and sold to a third party for now at least
- the biggest liability the bond debt not settled. £14m (per 2020 accounts) of it was borrowed by ACL which means the rest was the Rugby club. In fact the netting off of inter company accounts suggests ACL sub group only owes the wasps group £8m. Yet ACL & ACL 2006 are liable as guarantors for the full 35m
- Wasps rugby despite having the biggest proportion of the liabilities has very few actual assets. The P share, training equipment and a few fixtures and fittings, but doesnt own directly the ground, training facilities, the fixtures etc of the stadium, the stadium trademark & goodwill. Rugby players carry no transfer value. Wasps holding does of course own the shares in ACL for now
- assets can be transferred between companies that are 100% owned by holding company
- precious little communication from senior wasps management/directors and Richardson reappointed a director. Certainly not much if anything by way of empathy for the ordinary staff who have or will lose their jobs.
- wasps players being given contracts elsewhere till end of season or just sitting tight. RFU rules say rugby debts have to paid in any rescue.
- this twitter release last night regarding the rescue of wasps rugby by a new company - i assume that means transfer of assets and rugby liabilities only to a new entity. Could also include the shares in ACL because overall the bond security is unaffected because the only asset charged is the lease in ACL and that doesnt move
- the offers that have been rejected
- wasps dont appear to have been involved in the talks between ACL, CCFC, CCC & Delaware
- no mention of moving from the area to restart, no apologies to the people they have let down
- RFU even releasing statements saying progress by administrators of rugby club being made
- the convenient leaks of information - i wonder if that comes from the owner to set the scene
- the bond trustee statement about request for further funds, with the stated consequence of ACL being liquidated not just administration.
- the threat of the administrators to perhaps put ACL in to administration.

Just a few of the things that worry me about what is going on. Things dont add up in a positive way to me. It would not surprise if the new entity ends up owning the stadium but with a lot of the existing debt and charges greatly reduced or gone. One year in the Championship to prove worth then business as usual

like i said i get a bad feeling about this, i hope i am very very wrong

Yeah I've had a bad feeling from the start

I'm sure Richardson will still be involved too and so will the council.

I also have a feeling they won't even be relegated.

 

---

[Saddlebrains]

Tbf.

My confidence of the last 48 hours has now waned dramatically

 

[slowpoke]

Am getting a bad feeling about this. Things seem to me to point to a prepack company rescue where unsecured creditors and the employees are thoroughly screwed by the money people.

we have all seen a company structure used before but there seems to be some sort of pattern here too

- accounts for wasps holdings group filed on time
- accounts for ACL, ACL 2006, IEC not filed, all subsidiaries of wasps holdings. How do you sign the main accounts off if you cant at the same date sign off the subsidiaries. What are we not supposed to see in the subsidiary company figures? Have assets moved?
- The training ground never part of the group assets and sold to a third party for now at least
- the biggest liability the bond debt not settled. £14m (per 2020 accounts) of it was borrowed by ACL which means the rest was the Rugby club. In fact the netting off of inter company accounts suggests ACL sub group only owes the wasps group £8m. Yet ACL & ACL 2006 are liable as guarantors for the full 35m
- Wasps rugby despite having the biggest proportion of the liabilities has very few actual assets. The P share, training equipment and a few fixtures and fittings, but doesnt own directly the ground, training facilities, the fixtures etc of the stadium, the stadium trademark & goodwill. Rugby players carry no transfer value. Wasps holding does of course own the shares in ACL for now
- assets can be transferred between companies that are 100% owned by holding company
- precious little communication from senior wasps management/directors and Richardson reappointed a director. Certainly not much if anything by way of empathy for the ordinary staff who have or will lose their jobs.
- wasps players being given contracts elsewhere till end of season or just sitting tight. RFU rules say rugby debts have to paid in any rescue.
- this twitter release last night regarding the rescue of wasps rugby by a new company - i assume that means transfer of assets and rugby liabilities only to a new entity. Could also include the shares in ACL because overall the bond security is unaffected because the only asset charged is the lease in ACL and that doesnt move
- the offers that have been rejected
- wasps dont appear to have been involved in the talks between ACL, CCFC, CCC & Delaware
- no mention of moving from the area to restart, no apologies to the people they have let down
- RFU even releasing statements saying progress by administrators of rugby club being made
- the convenient leaks of information - i wonder if that comes from the owner to set the scene
- the bond trustee statement about request for further funds, with the stated consequence of ACL being liquidated not just administration.
- the threat of the administrators to perhaps put ACL in to administration.

Just a few of the things that worry me about what is going on. Things dont add up in a positive way to me. It would not surprise if the new entity ends up owning the stadium but with a lot of the existing debt and charges greatly reduced or gone. One year in the Championship to prove worth then business as usual

like i said i get a bad feeling about this, i hope i am very very wrong

The bottom line for CCFC fans though is will they should they carry on be based and play in Coventry, I don’t care if they re-form and become a rugby force again just not here, any group taking the Wasps name on must surely see Coventry as a home base is not for them.

 

[rexo87]

Am getting a bad feeling about this. Things seem to me to point to a prepack company rescue where unsecured creditors and the employees are thoroughly screwed by the money people.

we have all seen a company structure used before but there seems to be some sort of pattern here too

- accounts for wasps holdings group filed on time
- accounts for ACL, ACL 2006, IEC not filed, all subsidiaries of wasps holdings. How do you sign the main accounts off if you cant at the same date sign off the subsidiaries. What are we not supposed to see in the subsidiary company figures? Have assets moved?
- The training ground never part of the group assets and sold to a third party for now at least
- the biggest liability the bond debt not settled. £14m (per 2020 accounts) of it was borrowed by ACL which means the rest was the Rugby club. In fact the netting off of inter company accounts suggests ACL sub group only owes the wasps group £8m. Yet ACL & ACL 2006 are liable as guarantors for the full 35m
- Wasps rugby despite having the biggest proportion of the liabilities has very few actual assets. The P share, training equipment and a few fixtures and fittings, but doesnt own directly the ground, training facilities, the fixtures etc of the stadium, the stadium trademark & goodwill. Rugby players carry no transfer value. Wasps holding does of course own the shares in ACL for now
- assets can be transferred between companies that are 100% owned by holding company
- precious little communication from senior wasps management/directors and Richardson reappointed a director. Certainly not much if anything by way of empathy for the ordinary staff who have or will lose their jobs.
- wasps players being given contracts elsewhere till end of season or just sitting tight. RFU rules say rugby debts have to paid in any rescue.
- this twitter release last night regarding the rescue of wasps rugby by a new company - i assume that means transfer of assets and rugby liabilities only to a new entity. Could also include the shares in ACL because overall the bond security is unaffected because the only asset charged is the lease in ACL and that doesnt move
- the offers that have been rejected
- wasps dont appear to have been involved in the talks between ACL, CCFC, CCC & Delaware
- no mention of moving from the area to restart, no apologies to the people they have let down
- RFU even releasing statements saying progress by administrators of rugby club being made
- the convenient leaks of information - i wonder if that comes from the owner to set the scene
- the bond trustee statement about request for further funds, with the stated consequence of ACL being liquidated not just administration.
- the threat of the administrators to perhaps put ACL in to administration.

Just a few of the things that worry me about what is going on. Things dont add up in a positive way to me. It would not surprise if the new entity ends up owning the stadium but with a lot of the existing debt and charges greatly reduced or gone. One year in the Championship to prove worth then business as usual

like i said i get a bad feeling about this, i hope i am very very wrong

Really hope you're wrong OSB. Sounds like the new owners of Wasps are purely rugby people so wouldn't really make sense to have a massive complex to look after. Although timing of this just before ACL admin does seem a bit suspicious

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[wingy]

Really hope you're wrong OSB. Sounds like the new owners of Wasps are purely rugby people so wouldn't really make sense to have a massive complex to look after. Although timing of this just before ACL admin does seem a bit suspicious

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New poeple more likely to be a front.

 

[Nick]

New poeple more likely to be a front.

My thinking too.

 

[oldskyblue58]

The bottom line for CCFC fans though is will they should they carry on be based and play in Coventry, I don’t care if they re-form and become a rugby force again just not here, any group taking the Wasps name on must surely see Coventry as a home base is not for them.

If you were the new owners coming in what asset would you rely on? I dont think there is any intention of moving away because they own the stadium.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Really hope you're wrong OSB. Sounds like the new owners of Wasps are purely rugby people so wouldn't really make sense to have a massive complex to look after. Although timing of this just before ACL admin does seem a bit suspicious

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

If they repeat what is now then it isnt going to work. The stadium needs to be run by people that know what they are doing, NEC, Delaware, Compass, AEG etc and no i dont mean any of these being second fiddle to the rugby owners as is the recent situation.

 

[Nick]

If you were the new owners coming in what asset would you rely on? I dont think there is any intention of moving away because they own the stadium.

Is it an asset with a 35mill bond against it?

 

[skybluetony176]

All of a sudden I’m not looking forward to tomorrow.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Is it an asset with a 35mill bond against it?

well depends on how they do the prepack and how that is financed. if the prepack clears the liability then yes

 

[Alkhen]

I just can't see it being viable long-term for Wasps to stay in Cov. It has been demonstrated that interest isn't there to sustain the CBS, even when times are calmer. Factor in the backlash if they do get control of the stadium again and it would be a disaster.

As Cov fans we have been conditioned to fear the worst. I fully expect us to get shafted

 

[Nick]

well depends on how they do the prepack and how that is financed. if the prepack clears the liability then yes

So they would need to agree an amount with bond holders?

 

[TomRad85]

All of a sudden I’m not looking forward to tomorrow.

I am just because I want answers. Bored now.

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[oldskyblue58]

So they would need to agree an amount with bond holders?

yes i would think so....... could be the full amount or "the best deal they could get".

I am guessing if the new entity buys it for £35m that in the coming financials it will be worth more.

If the money to buy it isnt put in to the new entity by interest bearing loans, say by issued share capital, then profitability and viability is improved

 

[Nick]

yes i would think so....... could be the full amount or "the best deal they could get".

I am guessing if the new entity buys it for £35m that in the coming financials it will be worth more.

If the money to buy it isnt put in to the new entity by interest bearing loans, say by issued share capital, then profitability and viability is improved

If it's worth more why couldn't they refinance?

It's as if random numbers are just plucked out

 

[Liquid Gold]

yes i would think so....... could be the full amount or "the best deal they could get".

I am guessing if the new entity buys it for £35m that in the coming financials it will be worth more.

If the money to buy it isnt put in to the new entity by interest bearing loans, say by issued share capital, then profitability and viability is improved

I don’t see how the administrator could legitimately say they’ve found the best deal for bond holders in a pre-pack unless it was for the whole lot.

Surely if it’s a % in the £ deal then they have to tender to multiple parties.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I don’t see how the administrator could legitimately say they’ve found the best deal for bond holders in a pre-pack unless it was for the whole lot.

Surely if it’s a % in the £ deal then they have to tender to multiple parties.

if thats all thats on offer how are the bondholders going to challenge it?

think back to 2014 do we know what the best deal was? sealed bids wasnt it?

 

[Nick]

even if someone else were to buy the stadium in administration wasp


if thats all thats on offer how are the bondholders going to challenge it?

think back to 2014 do we know what the best deal was? sealed bids wasnt it?

For ccfc's admin or Ricoh sale?

 

[oldskyblue58]

If it's worth more why couldn't they refinance?

It's as if random numbers are just plucked out

i dont know.

will all be based on independent valuers reports employed by the owners

 

[oldskyblue58]

For ccfc's admin or Ricoh sale?

ccfc's administration

 

[oldskyblue58]

could easily be barking up the wrong tree but we will know soon enough whats to happen

 

[Nick]

ccfc's administration

Wasn't that slightly different that there wasn't so much "external" debts?

I can't see HMRC being told their best offer is 50p without demanding to see all offers given to the Administrator, for example.

 

[Nick]

i dont know.

will all be based on independent valuers reports employed by the owners

Yeah but that's how they got to 35m in the first place and then nobody would touch them to re-finance it.

 

[oldfiver]

well depends on how they do the prepack and how that is financed. if the prepack clears the liability then yes

It could depend on who the Majority Bondholders are ?

 

[MAFF]

Coventry in talks about yet another groundshare

Exclusive: Walsall may offer a solution if owners Arena Coventry Limited go into administration

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[oldfiver]

OSB

RFU Regulation 5 refers to the "Rugby Club" creditors - would there be many?

 

[clint van damme]

could easily be barking up the wrong tree but we will know soon enough whats to happen

Rule of thumb, if a theory is good news for us, its barking up the wrong tree, if it's bad news for us, it's a nailed on certainty!

 

[Great_Expectations]

As if the on pitch result yesterday didn’t put us all in enough of a negative mood. Now this.

Don’t know details (nor is it my field to attempt to analyse the info available like OSB) but something seems to have changed from just a bad feeling of us being screwed to shit, things aren’t looking positive.

 

[oldfiver]

if thats all thats on offer how are the bondholders going to challenge it?

think back to 2014 do we know what the best deal was? sealed bids wasnt it?

If it goes to Liquidation the Bondholders control the Asset. The Trustee then acts for them ( whoever "them" might be )

Not sure of the process then if he agrees to sell at a figure below the debt amount?

 

[alexccfc99]

Coventry in talks about yet another groundshare

Exclusive: Walsall may offer a solution if owners Arena Coventry Limited go into administration

www.telegraph.co.uk

What’s it say, I’m not paying to read it

 

[Nick]

If it goes to Liquidation the Bondholders control the Asset. The Trustee then acts for them ( whoever "them" might be )

Not sure of the process then if he agrees to sell at a figure below the debt amount?

Then it comes down to the trustee... If he's a wasps man?

 

[ceetee]

I suspect Richardson might be content with walking away from Wasps Rugby Club but I can't believe he will walk away from his £ millions. His moves prior to admitting that the Wasp companies were broke suggested a cunning plan

 

[Nick]

I suspect Richardson might be content with walking away from Wasps Rugby Club but I can't believe he will walk away from his £ millions. His moves prior to admitting that the Wasp companies were broke suggested a cunning plan

Yep, said it before I can't see him just walking away and thinking better luck next time.

 

[Esoterica]

It would take brass balls of epic proportions to pull off a pre-pack, retain the stadium and just carry on in the city like nothing has happens.